What Does Perseverance Of The Saints Mean?

by Dr. Michael L. Williams · Print Print · Email Email

My first life experience with someone who held to the doctrine of “perseverance of the saints” was during the time I served in my first pastorate. I learned of a woman who struggled with addictions. She was taught by those who held strong Calvinist beliefs that if God chose her to be saved she would persevere over her addictions. Therefore, she rejected Biblical counseling as not relying on God’s will to deliver her. As her addictions persisted, she told her family that it must not be God’s will to be delivered so she must not be saved so why even try. She went on to live her life as an addict until she was involved in a horrific DWI crash. This led many in the church to wonder, “What does perseverance of the saints mean?”

Where did the phrase perseverance of the saints come from?

Perseverance of the saints is a phrase that is used to describe one of five cardinal doctrines of a theological teaching known as Calvinism as follows (1):

“The five cardinal doctrines expounded in the chapters of this book are known to many as the Five Points of Calvinism, and to others as the “doctrines of grace.” While these doctrines, though certainly not originated by John Calvin, were re-emphasized and taught anew by him at the time of the Reformation, it remained for the Synod of Dordrecht, 1618-19, which was convened to settle the Arminian controversy in the Reformed Churches of the Netherlands, to formulate these truths with great clarity and in painstaking detail. This official formulation was accomplished in a creed which represented the consensus of all Reformed churches of that day, the Canons of Dordrecht.”

These five cardinal doctrines are:

  • Total depravity
  • Unconditional election
  • Limited atonement
  • Irresistible grace, and
  • Perseverance of the saints

These are often referenced to as TULIP theology and founded in the teachings of Augustine, John Calvin, and A.W. Pink.

What Does Perseverance Of The Saints Mean

What does the phrase perseverance of the saints mean?

Perseverance of the saints means different things to different people. It is often confused with preservation of the saints. To persevere mans that one may “continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no prospect of success (2).” Preservation means “the action of preserving something or the state of being preserved, especially to a specified degree.(3)”

Preservation of the saints is different from perseverance of the saints. The saint, or believer, who has trusted Christ as their savior is sealed unto the day of redemption or “preserved” by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30). This sealing is by God and is kept by God (John 6:37-40; John 14:16-17; John 10:27-29; Hebrews 10:14; 1 Peter 1:3-5). This is often called “once saved always saved.”


To those of the Calvinist or reformed theology, perseverance is proof of “preservation” or your election by God to be saved as follows (4):

“When one speaks of the perseverance of the saints, there is one element that renders this perseverance of the saints absolutely sure, an element which may never be forgotten. One always perseveres because he is preserved by the living God — and there is no other possible reason for perseverance.”

“When I am concerned, as I am, of my salvation; when I am concerned with the fact that I am a sinner unworthy of any blessing; I then see already the fruit of the work of the Spirit in me. The concern, real spiritual concern, for sin; the hope and longing for salvation is the work of the Spirit. The fruit of the work of the Spirit in me is proof that I also am one of those preserved to the end. He who begins the good work in us will complete it unto the end.”

For the Calvinist, like the lady I encountered with the addiction, the fact that she was not persevering over her addiction was evidence that there was no Spirit of God working in her. This left her discouraged and confused, despite believing that Jesus died for her sins, and ultimately was cause of great destruction and sorrow in her life.


Another group holds to an Arminian or Methodist theology. This teaches that there is no eternal security or perseverance in salvation and a person must continue to persevere in works that demonstrate faith that is not “shipwrecked” as follows (5):

“If the oracles of God are true, one who was purchased by the blood of Christ may go thither (Hell). For he that was sanctified by the blood of Christ was purchased by the blood of Christ. But one who was sanctified by the blood of Christ may nevertheless go to hell — may fall under that fiery indignation which shall forever devour the adversaries.”

“Can a child of God, then, go to hell? Or can a man be a child of God to-day, and a child of the devil to-morrow? If God is our Father once, is he not our Father always?” I answer,

1.  A child of God — that is, a true believer — (for he that believeth is born of God,) while he continues a true believer, cannot go to hell.

2.  If a believer may  make shipwreck of the faith, he is no longer a child of God; and then he may go to hell, yea, and certainly will, if he continues in unbelief.

3.  If a believer may make shipwreck of the faith, then a man that believes now may be an unbeliever some time hence; yea, very possibly to-morrow; but if so, he who is a child of God to-day, may be a child of the devil to-morrow. For,

4.  God is the Father of them that believe, so long as they believe; but the devil is the father of them that believe not, whether they did once believe or no.”

For the Arminian, perseverance of the saints is a continual seeking of holiness that must be pursued, not necessarily out of a love for God, but so that one may not lose their salvation. For the lady with the addictions, this belief system would have led her to become discouraged and give up, much like the Calvinist teachings.

Which group is right?

In comparing these two approaches, they both seek good works in the believer. The prior, as a demonstration of God’s election to salvation. The latter, as a requirement for God’s continued grace. While many people may argue with these simplistic summaries; it is not the point of this article to debate the points of each.

There is a definite danger in all man made theological structures, because the focus of study and debate centers on the theology and writings of their proponents. A quick review of both camps reveals that they both came into being as movements that had very holy and unholy men in their ranks. For this reason, studying the Word of God without preconceived theological perspectives is in order.

When this approach is taken, a third way that simultaneously embraces and rejects positions held in high regard or disdain by either theological perspective will be gained along with clearer understanding. Ironically, when you come to this understanding, the Calvinist will label you as an Arminian and the Arminian will label you as a Calvinist. Fortunately, God will label you as His child by grace though faith.


Perseverance of the saints is one of five cardinal doctrines or points of Calvinism. For the Calvinist, it is the demonstration of a person’s election by God to salvation. For the Arminian, it is the continual seeking of holiness so that they may not lose their salvation. Sadly, one leads people who are struggling with doubt about salvation while the other leads people who are struggling with doubt if they have been good enough for salvation. Studying the Word of God must be done without any preconceived theological perspectives in order to discern the truth.

Related article: What are the Main Differences Between Calvinism and Arminianism?

Resources – Scripture quotations are from The Holy Bible, King James Version. (1) Herman Hanko, Homer Hoeksema, and Gise J. Van Baren, (1977). The Five Points of Calvinism by Reformed Free Publishing Association. (Forward). Retrieved from http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/index.html. (2) Google. (2014). “Persevere”. Retrieved from Google, https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=persevere. (3) Google. (2014). “Preservation”. Retrieved from Google, https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=preservation. (4) Gise J. Van Baren, (1977). The Five Points of Calvinism by Reformed Free Publishing Association. (Chapter 5). Retrieved from http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter5.html. (5) Thomas N. Ralston, (1924). Elements of Divinity by Abingdon-Cokesbury Press. (Page 495). Retrieved from http://www.imarc.cc/br/pdf/Bk_10001.pdf

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{ 18 comments… read them below or add one }

DocReits December 12, 2014 at 12:12 am

Hi Dr. Williams,

While historically interesting, I think much study over election is counter-productive.

I have found the easiest, and safest way to understand the questions surrounding election is in terms of the “whosoever wills” and the “whosoever won’ts”.(Jn 3:16). Whosoever will… will be saved and whosoever won’t… won’t.

IMO, it is really easy to get under the umbrella and very difficult to get out from under the umbrella. The “umbrella” being salvation. Paul tells us we have this incredible “freedom” in Christ which means that we can tell a lie and get away with it…that’s “Grace 101”. The corollary is just as important. If we lie(sin) we will suffer sorrow and “repent” seeking our Father’s forgiveness out of our love for Him(Jn 14:23).

What about the repeat sinner(addict), as in your example? We are all repeat sinners. We are born addicted to sin and although it gets better once saved, sin never leaves us. Here is addict Paul:

” I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin”(Rom 7:21-25).

We struggle with this flesh and have victories and failures. We must encourage ourselves and others to continue to seek God in prayer and the reading of the Bible. As a wise man said on this site, we will never be sinless, this side of Heaven, but with God’s help, we will sin…less as we grow closer and closer to Him.

Dr. Williams, do you remember reading whether Calvin or Arminius ever stepped down from their pedantic lecterns to discuss the “assurance” of the believer? My reading has always been in the areas you have discussed with these two, but never on the assurance God gives the believer when they believe and are saved. When we are saved there is that Holy Spirit indwelling occurrence which is an actual historical event. It is at this time and after which, that God’s Holy Spirit bears “witness” with our human spirit that we “ARE” His children(Rom 8:16). It is God’s surety with mankind(2 Cor 1:22).

Once the Holy Spirit indwells us, there is no talking about “waiting” until the goats and sheep are separated, once we get to heaven, to finally “find out” if we have “made it”. No need to save up enough S&H Green Stamps(Reward Book) to spend throughout eternity. We “know” we are saved by the quickening revelation of the Holy Spirit inhabiting our temples/bodies(1 Cor 3:16).

There is also “proof” of salvation, which is displayed for others to see, if others care to know. How? If they choose to be fruit inspectors they will see the Christian’s fruit. It would be in evidence for them to inspect.

“A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit(Mt 7: 18) and…”by this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”(Jn 13:35)

Anyway, if you could shed any light on the “assurance” question, in relation to the two theologians, it would be appreciated.




Aubrey December 13, 2014 at 9:20 pm

Romans 9:15
“For He saith unto Moises, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Ephesian 1:4-5
“according as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be HOLY and WITHOUT BLAME before Him in love. Having PREdESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesud Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,”

John 10:26-29
“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I KNOW THEM, and THEY FOLLOW ME. and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which game them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.” (Luke 15:4 pls read)

Romans 8:29-31, 33-39
“For whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also JUSTIFIED, and whom he justified, them He also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can against us?
Who shall lay anything to the charge pf God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh INTERCESSION FOR US. WHO SHALL SEPARATE us from LOVE of CHRIST? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. NAY, IN ALL THESE THINGS we are MORE THAN CONQUERORS through HIM that LOVED us . For I am persuaded, that neither DEATH, nor LIFE, nor ANGELS, nor PRINCIPALITIES, nor POWERS, nor things PRESENT, nor things to COME, nor HEIGHT, nor DEPTH, nor any other creature shall be able to SEPERATE us from the LOVE of GOD, which is in CHRIST JESUS our LORD.”

I hope brother that the Spirit of Truth will enlighten your heart and mind to whatever has been revealed in the texts. My the grace of the Lord be with you all to the glory of God the Father.


Aubrey December 13, 2014 at 9:33 pm

Hi Bro Docreits,

Just to add up of what I have written above, the sheep cannot be goat neither goats can be sheep. The bible has clearly mention that there are sheeps and goats and they are separate entities. Sheep belongs to God (John 10:27) and goats belong to the world (John 17:16).


Aubrey December 13, 2014 at 10:04 pm

Assurance of salvation does not depend on us and our good works so to speak. The truth is, it is the gift of God grace given from up above (Eph 2:8). If we belong to the flock of God chosen from the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), even if our flesh will fail us many times yet the compassion of the Lord fail not, hence, we are not consumed because of His unfailing love(Lam 3:22-23).

1 John 2:1
“…..and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the roghteous.”

Moreover, all members of the church was really given assurance to salvation as mentioned by the Lord Jesus himself….

John 16:13
” Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…..”

John 16:33
“….in the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world.”

Matthew 16:18
“…..and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not PREVAIL against it.”

God’s word shall never fail neither anyone nor anything can disannul it (Isaiah 54:10, Isaiah 14:27).


DocReits December 13, 2014 at 11:27 pm

Hi Aubrey,

Thank you for the Scripture verses you shared. I have read them. I understand your position and I agree that those who are being saved are predestined for glory. Those who die unsaved are predestined for hell. God preordained and predestined these things before He even laid the foundations of the world.

The broader issue I was attempting to address in my opening sentence is that this discussion is counter-productive. The reason it is is counter- productive is that it changes nothing in what we must be about as Christians.

We are still un-knowing about whether our neighbor is a sheep or a goat(whether they will ultimately accept or reject Christ before their physical death) so it does not change our need to share with them the Gospel. We are servants of Jesus and He commands us as servants to do so. “Servants obey your masters”….

You cannot get around the word “whosoever” in Jn 3:16 remember. Here it is:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”.

So until my neighbor has a sign from God that says, “GOAT” on his back, I am commanded to share the Gospel with him, as he might just be one of those “whosoever wills”.




Aubrey December 14, 2014 at 12:58 am

Hi Docreits,

I agree with you that we don’t know who are true and false only God will reveal them in an appointed time (II Thess 2:6-8). However, we have given signs to know of “which is which” like what is found in Matthew 7:16… “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” Anyway, to be judge of others is none of our duties to make ….”There is only one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy, but who you are to judge your neighbor?” But what thing I can be sure of that must be obeyed by all believers . . . to preach the gospel to all people from all accross the world regardless if person listening is saved or not because we are an ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor 5:20).

Mark 16:15-16
“….go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel into every creature.”

May these passages I have given unto will somehow aid you in your inquiries. Godbless you and your family my brother in Christ. 😉


Aubrey December 14, 2014 at 1:02 am

James 4:12
“There is only one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy, who art thou that judgest another?”


Aubrey December 14, 2014 at 2:11 am

Hi Docreit,

I forgot to mention also that the purpose of preaching the gospel into all the world is not mainly to save those who belong to God but we also have to consider the following verses down below. The Spirit of Truth has a mission to make to “REPROVE the WORLD of SIN”…and to us being the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit (I Cor 6:19-20) the commandment are given to us to accomplish as well…

John 16:7-11
“…..for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, HE will REPROVE the world of Sin, and of Righteousness, and of Judgment. Of sin, because they believe not on me. Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because te prince of this world is judged.”

As a result, we become the light (Matt 5:16) and salt (Matt 5:13) of the world.


Aubrey December 14, 2014 at 2:22 am

I am sorry it should be “the purpose of preaching is “Not ONLY” to save those who belong to God.


DocReits December 14, 2014 at 4:35 pm

Hi Aubry,

Thank you for the discussion,

This discussion is validation of my main point…that it is counter-productive, because, it does not change or influence anything that the believer is called to do…which is to preach the Gospel.

I think, from what you have written, that you believe as many in the high Calvinist camp, that the sheep are saved even before they believe. In other words, we are incapable of believing because we are totally depraved by sin, and have no ability to choose God. It is therefore God, through His Holy Spirit, who saves those He has already chosen(inescapable Grace) through His Sovereign Will, without the “sheep” making any independent choice. Am I right?

It is a mystery and that is why there is so much debate…because somethings are unknowable. God is God and we are not. I am uncertain how the whole predestination thing works. All I do know is what the Lord commands us to do, and that is to preach the Gospel. To give you food for thought regarding your position, consider the following.

You write:

““the purpose of preaching is “Not ONLY” to save those who belong to God.”

I disagree. Those verses you quoted are for one purpose. As we become salt and light, and through the Holy Spirit, reprove the world of sin, that is for a single purpose. “Reprove” also means to “convict”. Why does God want to reprove the world of sin? Think about it. Again, why does God want to reprove the world of sin, if we are dead to sin, and cannot be reproved, according to the high Calvinist?

Why does the Lord wish to convict the world of sin? Is it not to show them their standing with the Creator, their Judge? We are all guilty of breaking His Law. Our punishment is hell. That is why the Law was given…in order to show the lost their brokenness and need of the Savior. Here it is:

“Now we know that what things soever the law said, it said to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God”(Rom 3:19).


“Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins”(Gal 3:19).

IMO, you are in an untenable position Aubrey, to believe that the showing to the world their sin, was just for the purpose of showing them their sins, without the intended consequence of that “showing” being their conversion. Read here:

“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul”(Ps 19:7)

The Law of God(The Ten Commandments) are supernatural. The reading and telling of them convicts the deadened heart. The Law supernaturally awakens the soul through the Holy Spirit’s intervention as they are spoken or read. Their purpose is to show men their standing before a Holy God. That standing is their “guilt”.

The purpose of the preaching of this Gospel is to cause them to repent and cry out for mercy. That mercy is found in only one source…Jesus Christ…who bore their penalty. Only through faith in Jesus and His Resurrection may their guilt be absolved and their future be secured as a child of God.

Preaching was not to wave a flag on the side of the saved and say, “too bad” to the side of the lost. “We are salt and light…hah, hah, too bad lost, you die, we win.” God forbid!

Yours is a very difficult position, IMO, to live with. The reason is that the high Calvinist believes that all of the activities of the servant(the saved) are merely dutiful activities at the behest of the Master, that really do not impact the final eternal outcome of those who are saved and those who are damned.

While God is sovereign and knows beforehand who will be saved and who won’t, He requires His servants to preach the Gospel for a reason…and that reason was not just “lip service” requirement. As you quoted, the Holy Spirit was given to convict the world of sin. He does this through the preaching of the Gospel, “within” the earthen temples of His people(1 Cor 3:16).

Paul says it better:

“For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. 18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. 19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.”

He wanted to “win” them to Christ. His only, and only and only reason for preaching was that he might save some, not for just “duty” but that they would believe through his preaching:

“22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.”(1 Cor 9:16-19, 22,23)

Here he is again becoming all things to all men that he might save some. Salvation was the only purpose for his preaching:

” 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.”(1 Cor 9:20,21)

What other purpose Aubry, do you suggest preaching to be for…if not “only” for salvation?




Aubrey December 14, 2014 at 6:15 pm

Hi Docreit,

I understand your point of view and I don’t want to argue with whatever your position is. But I just want to clarify that I am not
for Calvin neither a calvinist. I believe that doctines and opinions of men cannot edify if it is not mainly taken from the Word of God. What I have showed you are those from the scriptures that we cannot deny few statement that only come from me to explain a little. The word of God speaks for itself in as much as scripture answer scripture.

And if you are asking me what other purpose why the gospel is preach? Maybe you have missed to read the succeeding passage..Here it is pls read…

John 16:8-11
“and when he is come, reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment.

Of sin because they believe not on me.

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father and ye see me no more.

of judgment, because the prince of this world is being JUDGE.”

Have a blessed day ahead!




Aubrey December 14, 2014 at 8:06 pm

The mysterys of the Kingdom of Heaven was already given unto the children of God.

Matthew 13:11
“He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.”

We can’t do nothing against yhe truth but for the truth brother. This is not Calvin’s neither any man’s doctrine but purely the word of God whether you accept it or not.

Isaiah 46:10
“Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, My counsel shall stand and I will do all my pleasure.”


DocReits December 14, 2014 at 9:46 pm

I apologize if I upset you Aubry. That was not my intent.

My point was that all of the Scripture you cited was for leading mankind(humanity) to accept Christ and be saved. That is the only purpose of preaching the Gospel. I did read what you wrote.

Let Scripture explain Scripture as you advise:

You quoted,

“Matthew 13:11
“He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given.”

Paul explains that mystery in Colossians:

“… the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim…”( Col 1:26-28a)

Paul proclaimed(preached) the “Mystery” of God, which was God in Christ and Christ in man…that we might be saved! That is the Gospel in a nutshell.

Every Scripture you have cited, every Book in the Bible has one intent and one intent only…to lead mankind to Jesua, The Messiah. The Gospel and the Kingdom of God is about one thing and one thing only, namely to proclaim the Will and Purpose of God(The Kingdom), which is that mankind might be saved.

Here is a non-exhaustive list of “every” Book in the Bible’s Scripture references pointing to the Messiah.


Jesus said it Himself when describing the Father’s Will for His life, ” In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God” (Heb 10:7,8) Jesus is the Word of God. He is (the volume of the Book)written on every page of the Bible(Jn 1:1, 14), every sentence, every letter…and the Word became flesh, a Miracle we will celebrate shortly.

God had one purpose in mind when He sent Christ…that we might be saved. There is no other Gospel. There is no other purpose when preaching the Gospel, for there is no other Gospel than Jesus Saves.




Aubrey December 14, 2014 at 11:46 pm

Hi Docreit,

No Sir. I am not offended by what you believed and I highly respect that to be honest with you. Its just our convictions are really not aligned. The Kingdom of Heaven does not only end in the topic “Jesus Saves” or in salvation alone for there are things like “mystery of iniquity” in II Thess 2:7, and many more that are yet to come. Notice the word “mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven” it’s written (mysteries) in plural form.

2 Timothy 2:15
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

I just feel like little worried about how come “assurance” of salvation is still a question mark on others. If that is the case I could say that the foundation of the knowledge of truth might be lacking in any way or worse ‘incorrect.” We have given assurance of the Father that our salvation is eternal (John 10:28 and Romans 8:37). Moreover, we have the Holy Spirit in us and yet some are still doubtful and believe not the power that was given unto us and the victory that has already been proclaimed ages ago(John 16:33).

(John 14:16)”And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;”

What a remarkable assurance of salvation for those who believe and I thank the Lord Jesus for that.

“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matt 28:20)

Again, I am not a Calvinist neither doctrines that I speak came from any man but derived itself from the Bible. As it is written…

1 Corinthians 14:33
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”

II Timothy 1:7
“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”

II Peter 1:10
“……give diligence to make your CALLING and ELECTION sure, for ye do these things ye shall never fall.”

I have showed you all biblical passages that would prove that “sheep” will always be sheep and are sometimes called lost sheep (Psalms 119:176) but never “goats” (Matt 25: 32-33). That doctrine can never be found in any pages of the scripture I tell you. Goats will always be goats and so as sheeps.

The book of life was already written even from the foundation of the world. And again, whether someone reject it or not it is clearly written in the word of God and no one can deny the truth. Anyone can interpret the scripture based on his own knowledge but only scripture can interpret accurately whatever has been revealed in the word of truth.

Revelation 13:8

“And all that dwell upon the earth, shall worship him whose names are NOT WRITTEN in the book of life of the lamb slain from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD.”

Thank you for taking time to read my dear friend 🙂




DocReits December 15, 2014 at 12:46 am

Well said Aubrey,

I look forward to partaking in the Glory of the Holy City some day with you. Please look me up…I will be the one, just inside the gate, grateful for the tender mercies of the King…;-)



Aubrey December 15, 2014 at 3:06 am

Amen to that brother! Amen! Praise the Lord for opening your understanding to the word of truth (James 1:5).

See you in the eternal Kingdom of God! Amen and Amen!




Aubrey December 15, 2014 at 3:22 am

Amen to that brother! Amen! Praise the Lord Almighty! The “Spirit of Truth” had open your understanding to accept the truth that you had once doubted in your heart (I Cor 2:12-14).

See you in eternal Kingdom of God. Amen and amen!




DocReits December 19, 2014 at 1:41 am


“The “Spirit of Truth” had open your understanding to accept the truth that you had once doubted in your heart (I Cor 2:12-14).”

No Aubrey, your few Calvinistic thoughts have not moved my heart one inch…;-) The only thing I “doubt in my heart” is your sincerity as your grammar gets better and worse in your writings, making me think you are trying to disguise your identity. Nonetheless, I will try again.

You can claim to not follow man’s precepts but you and Calvin are bedfellows. You are of the persuasion that God started things out with a big Christmas bag full of souls. He picked one out and said, “You are a goat” and then picked another out and said, “You are a sheep”. He then sewed these souls into our bodies and “Voila!”…here we are…the sheep and the goats.

Have you ever stretched your mind Aubrey to think that maybe God is not linear. Maybe He, like Einstein suggested, can bend time and space. Maybe He is outside that whole time/space dimension and not only can see the decisions we are making today but those we will make in the future?

In other words, HE KNOWS by existing in the future who will or won’t accept His Son Jesus and be saved in the present. By already having known this He KNOWS who the Goats and the Sheep are before they are born AND from the foundation of the world he had this foreknowledge.

That does not affect our Free Will choices TODAY!…It is simply that He already knows the choices we made today, and will make tomorrow, because He exists in the future, besides the present and the past.

That is why Jesus says again in Jn 3:16 “WHOSOEVER” believes in Him will be saved. The last time I checked “whosoever” means “whosoever”.

Think about it. If I believed like you, I would feel pretty comfortable about not supporting missions. “Goats are goats and sheep are sheep” according to you. Shoot, we have “irresistible Grace” also Doc, which means the sheep cannot even refuse to believe in Jesus even if they wanted to! And those goats well… forget them..they are damned already.

So much for missionaries! So much for praying for the lost…errr lost “Sheeps” according to you…after all, we don’t want to waste any prayers on the goats. Are you beginning to see how foolish your position is Aubrey? Why waste our breath? “Well Doc, God told us to waste our breath”. How is that Aubrey? “Well, God said to pray for our enemies right there in Mt 5:44” and those Goats are nasty. They were born nasty and they are the “headed to hell nasty”. Strange, I thought we were all born nasty…;-)

So Aubrey, what has our conversation accomplished? As I said in the beginning it is counter productive. Why? Because those leaning toward your warped un-Scriptural view might be convinced that they should not try to reach the lost with the Gospel. Why? Your logic:

“Sheeps and Goats. They is what they is…no getting around it. No changing it. “Can’t make goats into sheeps Doc”…Your words…”never has happened”…your words.

I am asking you Aubrey to stretch your mind now and think. What if the goats in Scripture are those who indeed rejected Christ in this life. God knew that DECISION because He was there at their death. He also knew that decision at their birth because He had already been there at their death to record it.

Where did He record it? It was recorded in the Book of life from the foundation of the world(Rev 13:8), which verse you quoted…because He had already seen their decision AS THEY MADE IT! Not because He predestined them “NOT TO BELIEVE”, but because he looked forward to the time of their trust in Him.

You won’t convince me Aubrey that God has pre-made goats and sheep in His Christmas sack. No Mam!…My God allows EVERYONE a free decision…(tbd)…”to be determined” during their life BY THEM. He is no Christmas Grinch…




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