What Do Christians Believe About Dinosaurs?

by Jack Wellman · Print Print · Email Email

When Christians are asked by non-believers to reconcile dinosaurs and the account of creation in Genesis, many questions arise. Is the Bible silent about dinosaurs? Why are dinosaurs apparently never mentioned in scriptures? Did dinosaurs live before or during the time of Adam and Eve and mankind?

We should note that the word “dinosaur”, which means terrible lizard, is a relatively new word that was first used in 1842 and was coined by scientist Richard Owen. This is the reason that the word “dinosaur” doesn’t appear in the Bible which was written well before the 1800‘s.

What The Bible Says About Dinosaurs

Dinosaur-like Creatures Mentioned

In the Book of Job, dinosaur-like creatures are mentioned and so they appear to have existed at the same time that Adam and Eve and their descendants existed. Job is an ancient book. If this book were placed in its true chronological order in the Bible, it would reside within the Book of Genesis since Job lived over 4,000 years ago.

In Psalm 74:13 it says, “It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters.” Isaiah 43:20 reads, “The beast of the field shall honor me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen” and he also writes about a monster (51:9).

Specifically, Are Dinosaurs in the Bible?

Job describes what sounds very much like a dinosaur. Read Job 40:15-24:

15 “Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God, yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it; it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes, or trap it and pierce its nose?”

Some of the translations say that the word “Behemoth” is an elephant or hippo, but there has never been a hippo or elephant that has a tail like a “cedar” (v 17) which is taken from the cedars of Lebanon. The cedars of Lebanon were valued above all timbers in ancient antiquity. They were 130 feet tall and their stout trunks could be over 8 feet in diameter. What elephant or hippo has a tail that size!? Many ancient dinosaurs were up to 150 feet in length like the Brachiosaurus.

Verse 19 says that this enormous creature ranked first in all of God’s works (v 19). Its size allows it to be unfazed by a “raging river” (v 23). It also appears to be irresistible even to humans or other animals that try to “trap it” (v 24).

Elsewhere, Job (41:1-34) describes a creature that inhabits the seas that some translations have mistakenly translated into the word whale. But any Bible with margins that gives the original translation of the word clearly indicates it is not a whale. What whale has razor sharp teeth like iron that can swallow its prey whole (v 14)? Has anyone ever seen a whale or fossil remains of a whale where the weapons of man cannot penetrate (v 26-29)? What whale can destroy its prey by simply passing over it (v 30) and has no fear whatsoever of anything (v 31-34)? In 2008 the Natural History Museum in Oslo, Norway revealed one of the largest dinosaur sea predators ever found. It is a Pliosaur Kronosaurus which is estimated to be over 50 feet long. The teeth that remain are still sharp enough to cut wood.

Dinosaurs, Fossilization and Extinction

There are hundreds of early British and French explorers and trappers and American explorers and settlers that wrote down reports of sightings of giant mastodon bones still lying on the ground. Many of the Indians they spoke with mentioned them as being in recent memory. The fact is that fossilization does not take millions of years since under the right conditions a bone, an old boot, and even wood can become filled with minerals fairly quickly. Necessary ingredients for fossilization, even in a few thousand years are these; a quick burial under very deep water or volcanic ash.

Consider the Great Flood of Noah’s time — this would have provided excellent conditions for fossilization of plants and animals. There would have been a rapid burial by millions of tons of water and sediment. The fact is that today there are many dinosaur remains that are still not completely turned in to rock and that have not been fossilized; millions of these have been found as bone. Even today they are finding fish fossils that still have a fishy smell to them. The flood may have been the reason that many of the dinosaurs died out. Even the sea creatures would have died since many of their prey could have perished in the flood.


The more we read the Bible, the more we find that dinosaurs are not inconsistent with the scriptures. They could have died from disease, the flood, or in some cases, hunted into extinction. Regardless, it is obvious that the dinosaurs did roam the earth at one time. It is also clear that the Bible makes mention of some creatures that fit their description. Therefore, Christians belief in the Bible and the knowledge of the existence of dinosaurs, are not incompatible. In fact, they are completely compatible with God being the Creator of all life; plants, animals, insects, and mankind.

Did This Article Help?

If this article was helpful feel free to link this to your own blog or share this with others through the social buttons to the left or below. You might also enjoy the below articles related to Bible answers.

Are Guardian Angels Biblical?  –  This article gives a detail look at angels from the Bible along with answering the question in the title.

What is the Unforgivable Sin? –  Is there a sin that you can commit today that is unforgivable to God? Read this to find out.

What is Speaking in Tongues? – Have you ever wondered what the Bible says about speaking in tongues. This article will help to clear this up for you.


The Holy Bible, New International Version (NIV)

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{ 526 comments… read them below or add one }

Martha Ellen April 1, 2015 at 10:20 am

Very interesting posts. Amazing how much confusion Satan causes! Two comments: (1) Who can say how long a “day” is to the Eternal One True God? Surely, not a mortal man!
(2) The church founded by the holy Apostles of our Lord and God Jesus Christ is called the Orthodox Christian Church. In the year 1054 a.d. the ‘great schism’ occurred, and the Church split into East and West. The Eastern Church became known as the Orthodox Church and the Western Church was known as the Roman Catholic Church. They are not the same. All Protestant churches have since broken off from the Roman Catholic Church. It is history. Just look it up.
With respect. God bless all seekers. “Seek ye first the Kingdom of God…”


Beau April 5, 2015 at 10:46 pm

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And we learn he created everything, then man and gave him dominion. Woman came from his ribs to be a helpmate. She let herself be tempted. The snake was cursed for it’s part and so were we from Eve’s transgression and Adam’s participation. Now I think that all of the creatures existed and they were given dominion…rule of them. Once they gave in and sinned breaking commandment; we came to be and many flounder around asking is this so? Or what can we find to either prove or disprove ( when not fighting among ourselves) what is true or what is imagined. Read your bibles. Then many years later Jesus took pity on us and loved us so much he choose to come to this place and be our savoir. He willed to suffer and die for our sins. It is now up to us to let our souls be delivered. Believe through faith and we will be delivered, not sure dinosaurs are included. Live right and one day ask the Lord if we get to walk with them again in the New Heaven. God Bless.


Pat G May 16, 2015 at 3:36 am

I was watching a documentary on a Christian Channel that investigated this area. Really cool pictures!

Dinosaur Art From Ancient Tombs In Peru
Amazing evidence that dinosaurs and humans coexisted.



Henry July 21, 2015 at 11:43 am

I’d just like to pass on another way to help spread the gospel and it’s simply this:-

Include a link to an online gospel tract (e.g. http://www.freecartoontract.com/animation) as part of your email signature.

An email signature is a piece of customizable HTML or text that most email programs will allow you to add to all your outgoing emails. For example, it commonly contains name and contact details – but it could also (of course) contain a link to a gospel tract.

For example, it might say something like, “p.s. you might like this gospel cartoon …” or “p.s. have you seen this?”.


Jack Wellman July 21, 2015 at 12:15 pm

Thanks Henry…I have seen these…I hand these out from Living Waters (from Way to of the Master) and these and the Million Dollar Bible tract. They are great!


Rose White November 7, 2015 at 3:34 pm

Worms make fools of Evolutionists!
When God created worms He designed them to create deep fertile topsoil to cover the earth to make it productive and give us something nice to walk upon!
Worms are the key to understanding that Earth is Young as Genesis says and The Flood was real.


Jack Wellman May 24, 2012 at 9:57 pm

Thank you Stephen. I am so glad you had a back up of this post. I understand that you are not trying to offend anyone. Thank you for that and I appreciate your honesty in this and respect your right to tell others your beliefs here. I am glad we got it straightened out Stephen.


Jack Wellman June 3, 2012 at 7:36 pm

Tejas, let me say that the universe could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present. You simply cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise it wouldn’t be infinite). Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. If you lack belief in God, then your belief is a faith-based belief and one that you can not prove anymore that the eternally existing universe.


Tejas June 3, 2012 at 11:17 pm

Thank you Jack for your response. Let me first say that I do not lack a belief in God, but that does not mean I believe in one either (I do personally have a hard time believing in an omnipotent God at least). As for the universe being eternal, there are theories out there (M Theory) that theorize that there are an infinite cycle of Big Bangs (every trillion trillion years or so) and that there is no beginning or end. This theory still needs a lot more work so I cannot say for sure whether our universe is eternal or not, but hopefully in a few years we will know. As for faith-based beliefs, I just have a hard time understanding it. Without scientific proof, how can you say for sure one way or another (this goes for Christians as well as Atheists)?


Roch Sao December 3, 2014 at 12:57 pm

That was a terrific explanation…


Jack Wellman June 4, 2012 at 3:58 pm

I want to say, thank you so much Tejas. I appreciate your patience with me sir. To me the underlying theme is the Law of Causality. This principle of causation is so fundamental that if I said that the chair you are sitting on, which must have had a beginning, just popped into existence without any cause, you might justifiably think I need a psychiatric assessment and you’d be right! LOL

The cause of the universe must have been non-material because if the cause was material – natural, it would be subject to the same laws of decay as the universe. That means it would have to have had a beginning itself and you have the same problem as cycles of births and deaths of universes. So the cause of the universe’s beginning must have been super-natural, i.e. non-material or spirit—a cause outside of space-matter-time. Such a cause would not be subject to the law of decay and so would not have a beginning. That is, the cause had to be eternal spirit.

Furthermore, the cause of the universe had to be incredibly powerful; the sheer size and energy seen in the universe together speak of that power; there had to be a sufficient cause. Do you see my point sir


Tejas June 5, 2012 at 12:52 pm

Hi yes I do understand and see your point and you do have a very valid point. However we have only begun to fully understand the natural world and all that is in it. We could say that an all knowing supernatural being, God, created everything and as far as we know this could be true. But we are on a quest of knowledge and if everyone accepts this possible answer, than the quest stops.

I also want to bring up an analogy.. ants living in a glass ant farm. As far as they know their whole world is what they see and experience in their ant farms and to them we could be Gods. We are not all knowing or all powerful but to them we might appear that way. My point is just because we do not understand something, does not necessarily make it supernatural.


Robert June 5, 2012 at 3:13 pm

[My apologies. Due to the lack of my technical expertise, I posted this accidentally way up in the thread. I am reposting it here…where I attempted to place it in the first place…duh]

Good afternoon Tejas,
In your previous comment, you wrote: “We could say that an all knowing supernatural being, God, created everything and as far as we know this could be true. But we are on a quest of knowledge and if everyone accepts this possible answer, than the quest stops.”

Let’s apply this logic to any search. If we are searching, and we find what we are looking for, isn’t it absurd to deny its existence and keep looking? We would never come to the truth of anything. However, Jack has given some very solid logical defenses of the biblical position. If we agree that truth exists, we would also have to agree that it would be foolish to ignore that truth on the basis of flawed human reasoning or pride. Humankind will never know everything. God has given us all the knowledge, evidence, and facts to find Him. Only willfull resistance keeps us from seeing the truth.
God bless you Tejas.
Yours in Christ,


Jack Wellman June 5, 2012 at 3:16 pm

Thank you Tejas. You are right that “just because we do not understand something, does not necessarily make it supernatural” but neither does it prevent it from being possible either since we do not know all that there is to know. This is why being an atheist is impossible for the atheist to say dogmatically that there is no God is to know all things and all beings in all the venues of the entire expanse of the universe. To be a God to the ants is to be the ants creator and so we may look like ants to them, yet to the naked eye the earth appears flat, but we know better of course.

Who Made God? is repeatedly asked by Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion.  Who made God have been the atheist’s most frequent philosophical weapon and objection to the existence of God.

Professor Edgar Andrews addresses the argument that “man made God” in his book “Who Made God?“ and is actually the polar opposite of what Christians assert to be true.  But then the professor asks, “if we made God, who made us? (p. 17)”  Scott Adams said that evolution isn’t a cause of anything, it is categorizing, and observation, and it doesn’t deal with the cause of who made us.  Then you could say, “if evolution made us, who made evolution” (p. 18)? The atheist might answer, “everything around us”, to which we could ask, who made everything around us?  This is like the circular, never ending cycle, which is what is called Tautology.  Whatever A makes, say, B, then A must be greater (p. 19).  Professor Andrews uses the example that Beethoven was greater than his composition. This is a necessary, logical inference.


Tejas June 6, 2012 at 3:44 pm

Hi Robert – The difference here is that I do not believe we have found all truths. In fact we have just begun to explore our universe all its hidden secrets. The search for knowledge is what makes us human and stopping that search just because we think we found one possible answer, in my opinion, is absurd. If we had stopped this search 2000 years ago, where would we be today?

Jack – I do agree with you that it takes a leap of faith for an atheist to make such a claim, but it requires a similar leap of faith to make the opposite claim as well. I believe we both have made good points in this argument. We can at least agree, I hope, that mankind should continue our search for answers and one day as a society we will have found an answer to not just the why (as Christianity might explain to some) but the specifics of how (which the bible does not really explain).


lovejesus November 4, 2012 at 4:30 am

Mary maybe the grandson knows, she in a better place like Heaven.


Tejas June 6, 2012 at 3:48 pm

Sorry my last comment was a duplicate.. i did not realize it posted somewhere else :)


lovejesus November 7, 2012 at 2:41 am

Jesus gives comfort , to all that seek him!


koolkoala November 25, 2012 at 7:55 pm

King of hearts is my favorite card in the deck because Jesus pushed his scrutinies into the heart of a man. The intentions of philosophy and the Hebrew code focus on actions only. In addition to moral principles, the Christian doctrines teaches a purity of heart and holiness of life which constitutes its chief glory. The strongest civil code is impotent against malicious behavior unless the heart itself can be restrained.


John December 10, 2012 at 12:41 pm

The Facts of Life
Those who hail evolution as a “fact” are either ignorant of the facts, or lying about them. The fact is that scientists have only been able to create 13 of the 20 amino acids that make up protein molecules. And even these (almost always) consist of 50/50 mixtures of L-type (left-handed) and D-type (right-handed) amino acids. This is about as far from making a living organism as a piece of silver is from a computer (with monitor, printer, and electricity) running Windows XP. For even the most “simple,” self-replicating, bacterium contains many thousands of protein molecules, of 600 different types, that consist of left-handed (only) amino acids — each of which is connected in just the right order, like words and sentences on a page, while the most basic protein molecule (only 8 amino acids long) has never been observed to form naturally.

The most basic self-replicating bacterium is called Mycoplasma genitalia. It consists of at least 40,000 protein molecules of 600 different types, has 482 genes, and can’t survive on its own but requires the aid of a more complex “host” organism.
To suppose that one of these extremely complex creatures came into being by itself (over Billions of years) is an unsubstantiated speculation of the highest order and is NOT based on empirical (i.e. observed) science, but rather upon a blind faith in the power of (unintelligent) matter to somehow organize itself by time and chance, while overcoming the destructive forces of nature such as heat, oxidation, hydrolysis, and numerous toxic chemicals.
For example, is there any reason to expect that a “Creative” bolt of Lightning, or “Ocean Bubble” could ever produce a half-way-formed “pre-mycoplasmic” organic blob of cells, that would — in 100 Billion years — make itself more and more complex, to the point where it could maintain and Reproduce itself ? Or would such a (hypothetical) halfway formed blob of chemicals simply decay and degrade via natural processes?
Like it or not, the facts of science declare that such an imaginary “pre-creature” would not complete this process on its own, but would instead merely decay back into the unintelligent matter from which it came. In other words, a belief in evolution is based much more on (blind) faith, as opposed to scientifically observed facts; however this is NOT what our children are being taught in public schools, but rather instead are being brainwashed to believe something that (most certainly) can’t be true:


Raoul Duke January 3, 2013 at 11:50 pm

John – I stumbled across your post here and found it really interesting but also a bit confusing. I hope you (or Jack perhaps) can help clarify what you are saying for me.

First – you seem adamant that evolution is not only not true – but is dangerously false and you seem concerned that it is even being taught in public schools. I happen to know a bit about evolution and have studied it in some detail, especially in light of conflicts with various religious traditions like christianity. I have a hard time reconciling what you are saying with what christian scholars who are schooled in science and in christianity say – which is very different from how you describe it.

Are you familiar with a man named Pierre Teilhard de Chardin? He was a Jesuit priest who was also a highly trained geologist and paleontologist. He is quite well known for several things – but especially for his book “Phenomenon of Man” where is says “Evolution is a light which illuminates all facts, a curve that all lines must follow.”

It always makes me nervous when I find myself at odds with men of god who are much better educated than I am in the area of the intersection of religion and science. This priest advocated reconciling what is in the bible with modern science. And that seems to be what Tejas is saying (or asking for) in his comments above. You have to be very careful arguing that small issues or discrepancies in the science of evolution mean we should disregard the entire theory. For if we were to apply that same reasoning to the holy bible itself we would have to disregard it as well because there are small issues and discrepancies contained in it.

Further, another quite well-known saying is that “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” and this is quite powerful. Think about it – if you remove evolution as the driving force behind the diversity of life on this planet – there is nothing left to replace it. The “god created it” argument from the book of Genesis is problematic for a number of reasons. I can no longer believe that god separately created the millions of species on earth. I know much of gods work and plan is mysterious – but why would be make the lowly beetle and insects (disease carrying insects at that), bacteria, and viruses that continue to adapt and change in response to our efforts to fight them with antibiotics. Further, it is now documented beyond reasonable dispute that although there are millions of different species living on the planet today – that number is a mere fraction of all of the species that have lived and then gone extinct over the years. Do we really want to defend against the argument that the creatures that god designed were so poorly designed that the majority of them can’t even survive on this planet?

This troubles me and I assume it troubles Jack and you as well. right?

And persoanlly, I am deeply troubled by the many, many examples of poor design in nature. I won’t try to detail those here but you have to admit that when someone dies from a burst appendix, which is an part of an organ that we do not even need or use, then the design of the human digestive system could have been improved. Or the fact that the female birth canal passes through the perlvis – creating a situation that regularly endangers the life of the baby, the mother, and sometimes both. Or how about the fact that humans can’t even synthesize vitamin C – something that we absolutely need to survive. I am sure you know of the example of the bizarre and dangerous route that the laryngeal nerve takes inside the human body (going all over the place just to come back to connect up near where it started) and the health risks associated with such a strange design.

So I think the saying is that we have to be careful that in our zeal to defend Genesis we don’t end up shooting ourselves in the foot by trying to defend design issues that can’t be well defended at all. IN other words – the same class of criticism that we tend to throw at evolution results in conclusions we do not want to face when turned back on our own arguments in defense of our bible.

Finally, and just in passing – you say that ” the most basic self-replicating bacterium is called Mycoplasma genitalia.” I think you meant to refer to Mycoplasma as an organism with the smallest genome, right? For as I am sure you are aware – Mycoplasma genitalia is not the smallest self-replicating bacterium. that distinction goes to Candidatus Carsonella ruddii.

Would love to have your thoughts on this – and Jack – of course I need your thoughts and advice on such a difficult subject.



Jack Wellman January 4, 2013 at 9:48 am

Raoul, this is written with such intelligence to be beyond dispute. Thank you for writing with such clarity and logic. You are an apologist to an extraordinary degree. Please let me help you, if I can, in what way I can in the “difficult subject” you were asking about sir. May I be of any service to you? Let me know. Thank you so much for your outstanding response here.


Jack Wellman January 4, 2013 at 9:49 am

Hello Raoul, this is written with such intelligence to be beyond dispute. Thank you for writing with such clarity and logic. You are an apologist to an extraordinary degree. Please let me help you, if I can, in what way I can in the “difficult subject” you were asking about sir. May I be of any service to you? Let me know. Thank you so much for your outstanding response here.


John January 4, 2013 at 4:58 pm

Hello Raoul,
Thanks for your comments. Maybe this will help.

As you know Creation is based on the belief that an intelligent Creator/God purposely designed and put the universe together.
Evolution is based (and being taught) on the belief that life formed from non-living materials and that random chance and millions/billions of highly favorable and innovative mistakes or “mutations” were able to complement and build upon one another to create all the life forms which exist today, and to your point all the ones that have become extinct. Think about what this really means. No one person here on earth has ever started/created life from non-living materials. We know all the ingredients and can include every element need. We can create any environment state that we can imagine, add heat, electricity, water….whatever you like, but no one is even remotely come close to starting life. Ask yourself why is this? Do you believe the earth did this on its own. Do you believe life came to earth on an asteroid or comet? Sure we know LIFE evolves but what we are being taught is that non-living materials with zero intelligents, has inexplicably/ miraculously started “LIFE”

Only one of these beliefs can be true. Either we evolved from non-living materials, or life was designed and created. If it turns out we were Created, then this means that there are absolutes, and that everything is NOT relative, because the fact that we have been Created (by a Creator) is (or would be), in itself, an absolute truth: whether or not the Creator created us directly from “the dust of the ground” as we are told in Genesis (2:7, 9, 19), or indirectly by selecting and establishing the Laws of nature, and organizing the first self-replicating and organisms (pick one), and letting them “take their course.”
Neither the Creationist nor Evolutionist views are based solely on science, for they both make assumptions about the past that cannot be verified by any present methods or experiments and are therefore are believed by FAITH not science. Therefore, since no one can demonstrate how it happened, or even how the first living cell (somehow and against all odds) got itself started, stayed alive and learned to replicate, you are left to decide. What is great is that you are free to make up your own mind regarding who is right and how it occurred, and we should all be free to speak our minds in any public forum without fear of offending those who have very likely been miss lead by the Mass Media to believe something that (based on the “odds” alone) cannot be true.

Also, if you believe that God directed the process of CREATION, or that He started the first living cells and the Laws that allow for life to exist, and put them in a suitable environment, and then allowed “mother nature” to “take over” and Create all of the various and wondrous forms of life that we see around us — over millions of years, then you believe in Slow Creation: not evolution.
Furthermore, if it turns out that God did, in fact, spontaneously Create every different life-form that ever existed on this planet within any matter of days or period of time, then many other truths would result from this one absolute truth: including moral truths of right and wrong. In other words, if there is a Creator / God, (which there is) then He can/will establish and declare what is right and wrong, and hold us accountable for opposing or ignoring His direction or His plans or for violating His moral laws of right and wrong that are said to be “written in their hearts.” Romans 2:15.

Mycoplasma genitalium was chosen as the model for the Minimal Genome Project, as it was the species with the smallest number of genes known at that time with the ability to replicate itself. Mycoplasma genitalium was used as an example because we know the entire protein content of a cell. The point was to explain how absolutely complex even the most basic form of life is not that Mycoplasma genitalium was the most basic life form.

Hope that helps. Now go to church. : )

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-do-christians-believe-about-dinosaurs/#ixzz2H3ARgW6i


Raoul Duke January 4, 2013 at 11:28 pm

John, there is no need to keep repeating what you have said in previous posts and no need to copy or paraphrase from other sources – such as the website on creationism that you linked to at the end of your earlier post. I read that post and I looked at that website – repeating yourself therefore is just counterproductive.

Your are dangerously close to mixing apples and oranges regarding the difference between the creation of life and the evolution of life once created. Those are two very different things.

Evolution has nothing to say about and nothing to do with how life was first started on this planet. Nobody knows how that first happened. But because nobody knows the answer to that you have a tendency to immediately jump into the hole/gap that you think is there and then assert that god lives there.

Let me warn you about doing that. Christians have been doing that for a VERY long time and inevitably they regret it. It is the “God of the Gaps” phenomenon – where whatever modern science cannot explain then THAT is where you will find god. The obvious problem with that is that – so far at least – eventually science does come up with an explanation for that “gap” and then god vanishes and is inserted by believers into the next gap that science has yet to fill. Think about where god used to dwell: in the clouds, just above the firmament, looking down on us from the clouds and guiding – or ata least knowing- every move we make – every breath we take.

Next time you are in a plane at 30,000 feet look out the window and let me know if you see god or if you see heaven. Ok, we both know they are not there – but 2,000 years ago they were. I could cite hundreds of examples of the same thing.

The incredible diversity and adaptiveness of life on earth used to constitute obvious and self-evident evidence of god’s hand in creation. Charles Darwin was a devoutly religious man who had studied to become a priest. He had no desire or intention to cause the kinds of problems that his theory of evolution has created. In addition, he was just one of many, many, many of the “fathers” of various branches of modern science that have filled on those gaps that god used to inhabit but are not filled by simple scientific facts. None of them set out to eliminate or destroy god – just the contrary was happening – they were looking for further evidence to support god in god’s creation. Little did they suspect that they result of their work in support of god’s creation would be a radical reinterpretation of what is meant by the term.

But I ramble on too much. Here is the essential point and to make it I want to circle back to your comments in the last post. You end your first post by saying that our schools are teaching something that “can’t be true” (referring to evolution). In your second post you seem to be saying that evolution is true – but life originated with god. Perhaps I am reading you incorrectly and it does not really matter what or which you believe. But the problem pertains to the bible itself and the ramifications of god jumping in and out of the gaps in our knowledge over time.

I have seen a number of folks like you argue for what you call “slow creation” (or should I say what the author of the web page you cited calls “slow creation”). That god created life and he created the laws of nature and so god created evolution. It is all part of gods plan. Therefore the god of the bible is real and the words of the bible are true – except to the extent that they are not consistent with evolution. See the problem? If the bible is wrong, then the bible is wrong – so be it. Do you need the bible to believe in Jesus? That is for you to decide. But you cannot have it both ways and agree that the bible is wrong regarding the creation of life but everything else is still right and so its ok. You can’t do it that way John. That is supposed to be the infallible word of an all-knowing, all-powerful god containing his essential message to his creation. If any part of it is wrong, then none of it is “reliable” and none of it can be infallible – as you have just shown haw fallible it actually is.

Once you (anyone) start deciding that parts of it are real/literal and parts of it are not real/metaphorical (except for the most clear and obvious examples) then you are really just making up your own religion. This is done anyway by any number of christian sects and is called “cafeteria christianity” where you accept what you like and ignore what you do not like and are good to go. That happens ALL THE TIME by well-meaning people who proudly call themselves “christian” and they do not even realize that whatever it is they are doing/believe in – it is NOT christianity.

I can tell you are a man keenly focused on morality – its importance and its grounding in the bible. I suspect you defend literal bible reading (and hence creationism) so strongly because you absolutely fear the consequences to our world and our lives if the bible is not true.

That is admirable and understandable. But you can make a darn good argument for morality – its relevance and its critical importance to man and mankind – without requiring that the bible be literally true or complete garbage. There are other interpretations.

Now a lot of people believe that if the bible is not true then the world goes to hell in a handbasket becuase we would have lost our moral foundation and opened ourselves up to an “anything goes” world.

But the good news is that is just not true. Mankind seemed to do just fine before the bible was written down and collected into a book. Remember – for the new testament – this did not happen until more than 300 years after Jesus died. Mankind seemed to do ok before that time. Now the old testament books were still out there for sure – but they were not collected into any “official” version and certainly were not contained in a single “book.”Or think about the cultures – the vast numbers of people living on this planet that were unknown to the primitive and illiterate inhabitants of the middle east of the greek or roman worlds?

Think of the vast, great civilizations in Egypt, China, meso-america – where none of them had even heard of the fall of man in the garden of eden or the 10 commandments. Yet those civilizations were not immoral nor did they have an “anything goes” approach to each other or to life.

Isn’t that evidence that although the bible does contain some moral teachings, it is certainly not the basis of morality in mankind.

Think about it John – there is a way to live in the modern world, accept the best and latest findings of the sciences, and still hold on to your faith, your morality, and the life you want to live.

Maybe that is the modern gospel (good news)?


Robert January 6, 2013 at 1:20 pm

You spend an inordinate amount of time and energy casting doubt on the veracity of the Bible. The arguments you use have been soundly demolished by many theologians, some of them also faithful scientists. You repeatedly indicate your belief (and the belief of those you quote) that the Bible should be interpreted by science, rather than the other way around. Does science concede that resurrection is possible? If not, then (according to your worldview) we must say that Jesus could not have been resurrected. Correct?
Your ideas and arguments are not new, nor are they convincing to anyone who will do a bit of research. Christianity is not a blind faith that can be blown away by scientific theory (proven or unproven); believers have a historic faith with facts that can be verified as much or more than any scientific theory that would challenge it. Science has not, nor will it ever, deliver the slam-dunk rebuttal of which you think it capable.
God is reaching out to you also, Raoul. Instead of responding in faith, you spend your time in foolishness (Psalm 14:1, 53:1) not only rejecting Him, but attempting to convince others to reject Him. All the warnings you issued to John (in your comments) pale in comparison with the warning Jesus issued for those who would lead others into rebellion against God: Jesus warned, “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin” (Luke 17:2 ESV). I pray you will see the truth, Raoul.
Yours in Christ,


Jack Wellman January 7, 2013 at 12:33 pm

Rauol, I think we are done here. I see that you said, “If you are at 30,000 feet see if you see god (sic)” God is Spirit (John 3) and you can not see Spirit anymore than you can the wind. You can see the effects of the wind just as you can the effects of God (Psalm 19:1) “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.”

Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

May God open your eyes and take care and we hope you can find what you are looking for.


CC February 6, 2013 at 10:04 pm

I just read your comments here and forgive me, but are you a christian?I doubt anyone here is advocating biblical fundamentalism here since the bible is made up of moral laws, societal laws ritual laws etc. So that kind of biblical fundamentalism though from good place mainly stems from Sunday school (or my initial understanding of The Word certainly did). So forgive me, but you seem to be hinting at a form of scientism or belief without The Word. And ‘Cafteria christians’ as you call them, often end up becoming atheists or agnostics or what ever they call themselves these days because they base their belief not on The Word; but on a form of post modern liberalism that removes Christ, and this postmodern interpretation often flies in the face of the tradition Christ was raised in. Christ didn’t come to abolish the moral laws but to affirm them and to introduce to the word of God that relied much more on our hearts than our backgrounds. Your earlier discussions were sound but to use the claim that ‘Mankind seemed to do just fine before the bible was written down and collected into a book. Remember – for the new testament – this did not happen until more than 300 years after Jesus died. Mankind seemed to do ok before that time,’ is missing the point of why we believe in Christ. Remember though The Bible wasn’t written then, The Word was very much transmitted via Christ’s apostles and disciples in a form of Jewish Rabbinic Oral tradition and btw that number you gave there, is an exaggeration, at most it was 20-30 years after so no need to add another zero. Futhermore, the OT or Torah was around amongst the Jews (some were even written on ancient papyrus) long before the manifestation of the Logos or Christ arrived to usher in the New Testament so I’m not sure your point…
Christ came to save us. We are introduced to the good news or the gospels and it’s a cause for celebration; a celebration that our life need to not be futility or the profane but based on Sacredness and belief in Christ predicated on Love and not the bloodlust that characterized the era and manifests itself in different forms today so again, not sure your point. Your rhetorical hyperbole however isn’t lost on me. A belief in the Bible isn’t just predicated on ‘cafteria’ reading but historical, philosophical, cultural and even allegorical, symbolic, revelations and numerological positions that have being mainly lost to modern audiences particularly the significance of the numbers amongst the ancient Jews in general.


Robert January 6, 2013 at 1:26 pm

My brother Jack,
Did I misread Raoul’s comment? It seems that he is saying that, instead of the Bible being the standard which judges all others, he believes that it is science that should judge everything, even God’s Word (read his other comments also). I may be in the Twilight Zone, but that’s what I understood from his comments. I’m sure you don’t endorse that kind of worldview. Am I losing it?
Yours in Christ,


Raoul Duke January 6, 2013 at 2:16 pm

Yes you did misread – badly. Instead of considering and responding to what I actually said – you have apparently decided to respond to something else. For example: please go ahead and paste in the quote from my post where I say that science should “judge everything.”

I will remind you that just saying something does not make it so. At least in the real world. I did not cast doubt on the veracity of the bible – I pointed out a fatal flaw in your argument regarding “slow evolution” and the bible story of creation in Genesis and that you can’t have it both ways. O guess you are insisting on having it both ways. Nothing I can do about that.

Saying that the “arguments” have been “soundly demolished” without indicating what “arguments” you are talking about or showing how/where they have been “demolished” may work in your world – but not in the real world. Are we supposed to just take your word for this? Why would anyone do such a thing?

If you just want to ignore what is actually said and then engage in ad hominem attacks we should stop now. It is not fair to Jack or to his faithful readers to subject them to that kind of nonsense.

It is curious and fascinating to me that you are running away from what I suggested was a way to keep faith in god and the bible while at the same time understanding and accepting scientific findings and progress. Not sure why that scares you – but whether you like it or not it is where christianity is evolving anyway. (And I use that word intentionally although I suspect it will enrage you as well. The truth is that the bible was never intended to be read literally – that is a creation of Darby in the late 1800’s. Read literally, it is brutal, arbitrary, and derivative. It contains nothing new regarding spirituality – that had not previously existed for generations. Read as metaphor and as poetry and as a spiritual document it is a thing of unsurpassed wonder and beauty. It is time, don’t you think , that we return to a way of reading and using that great book as it was intended by those who wrote it?)

Have a nice day. I had hoped we could engage productively and am saddened that you have no interest in that.


Robert January 6, 2013 at 6:00 pm

I am quite calm and unenraged, thank you very much. I’ve seen all your arguments before. Thanks for responding, by the way.

Now you say you are not saying that science should determine biblical truth and you ask me to cut and paste examples where you have suggested this. How about these two quotes from you which show your thinking on the matter: First of all you quote Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who (according to you) says, “Evolution is a light which illuminates all facts, a curve that all lines must follow.” Indicating the supremacy of evolutionary science over, I guess, everything else. Then, you say, “Further, another quite well-known saying is that “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” and this is quite powerful. Think about it – if you remove evolution as the driving force behind the diversity of life on this planet – there is nothing left to replace it.” You are clearly saying that evolution created the diversity of life, not God. Now, as you are quite fond of saying, you can’t have it both ways. Either the biblical record is correct, or evolutionary science is correct. I have studied the suppose ‘evidence’ for evolution long enough to know that it has too many holes in it to be taken as a proven theory.

Let me straighten out a few things you obviously have misconstrued: I am not scared of your rhetoric, nor am I running away from your comments, far from it, I’m standing firm on the Word of God as truth which all other supposed facts must agree with. You accuse me of ad hominem attacks while you consistently misrepresent me and my points. But, as you said “Nothing I can do about that”.

The world does not need an ‘evolved’ Christianity. It needs to put its faith in the historical Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins. That’s what I wish to share with anyone and everyone. That truth is found within the pages of Scripture, Scripture that you attempt to cast doubt upon. Where do you do this, you ask? You wrote, “Isn’t that evidence that although the bible does contain some moral teachings, it is certainly not the basis of morality in mankind.” and “See the problem? If the bible is wrong, then the bible is wrong – so be it. Do you need the bible to believe in Jesus?” Just two examples, so don’t pretend innocence. You do not hold to the innerancy or infallibility of God’s Word, this means (as you put it in one of YOUR comments) that we think we can pick and choose which parts to believe and which to reject.

The only thing you’ve done in your comments is to belittle the biblical record. I won’t stand by and allow that to go on without a response (I Peter 3:15). By the way, Jack knows my heart (and my motivation) quite well.
Yours in Christ,


Jack Wellman January 7, 2013 at 12:35 pm

Robert, I meant to answer John instead of Rauol. My bad. I see that Rauol only wants to argue a moot point. I would suggest that Rauol finds a forum where there are atheists so that he can vent his frustration of God. Some day, sadly when it is too late, he will see God but not as Savior but as Judge. Best to you Rauol and goodbye. I think we have hit a wall. We will never convince you anymore than you will convince us that there is no God.


Robert January 7, 2013 at 1:42 pm

Brother, I knew there was a good reason (although you might get those glasses checked…ha…ha). God bless you, brother.
Yours in Christ,


Raoul Duke January 8, 2013 at 12:02 am

I did not say there “is no God.” I did not say I was an atheist. I did not denigrate, criticize, or make ad hominem attacks (all of which were done to me).

Jack – your comment to me in this same thread was:

“Hello Raoul, this is written with such intelligence to be beyond dispute. Thank you for writing with such clarity and logic. You are an apologist to an extraordinary degree. Please let me help you, if I can…”

I hope you have fun laughing at my expense – but it is such an unchristian thing to do that it literally shocks the conscience. I guess there is no tolerance here for anyone or any opinion that might differ from whatever your deem acceptable.

Robert is just fine – spouting nonsense (literally) but I speak of the bible as a book of “unsurpassed wonder and beauty” and you (figuratively) throw me out the door. It is really surprising to find such intolerance on a christian site. Reminds me of how the Pharisee’s treated Jesus when he came along saying things they did not want to hear. You know there are over 30,000 recognized christian sects. Few of them read the bible as if each and every word is literally true. So your view is a distinctly minority view and one that has been popular for less than 200 years.

And just for the record – Robert – you espouse a version of Christianity that has been around for less than 200 years. The view you bring – and most other sects is miles apart from what the original version was….in fact there was disagreement from day 1 about what it all meant. Do you think Paul and James agreed on what “christianity” was? Of course not – and that disagreement is documented in the bible itself. Do you know that if you were to profess your “current” views in the 12th century that you would have been burned at the stake as a heretic. Robert – if that is not evidence of a religion changing (yes “evolving”) over time I do not know what is. But you will go on pretending that what you are doing is consistent with the original version. Whatever you need to do to make yourself feel good.

Thanks guys – although I do not understand or appreciate being ridiculed and shunned because you do not tolerate words or views that do not agree with your own – historically it was not an uncommon practice. You are the guys who a few hundred years ago would have wanted someone like me put to death because of what I said or wrote. The irony is just too much. Today your only consolation is the punishment your god will inflict on me. You know – that compassionate, forgiving and loving god you always talk about. That guy can’t wait to get his hands on me to inflict punishment. Strange way to apply the golden rule don’t you think?

Have a nice day.


Robert January 8, 2013 at 9:13 am

No one here is laughing at you, or about this. No one here wants to see you burn in hell, either. Quite the contrary, we are concerned that your view of the Bible is too shallow. No one has ridiculed you either. We are simply championing the Word of God. And about your charge of intolerance; I am guilty of being intolerant of those worldviews which seek to minimize God or His Word. We are not free to construct our own religion by picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we deem authentic.

You say never claimed to be an atheist, but you never claimed to be a Christian either. One must look at your worldview to figure out just what you believe. You appear to believe that either science (man’s opinion of what is factual) or church history (the record of man’s views, not God’s) should have final say over the Bible. [By the way, you seem to have a very one-sided view of church history. I don’t know who you’ve been listening to, but you should check out some other sources] Your view of the Bible seems to be that you, or I, should be able to make it say whatever we want it to say. Why even use the Bible then? It would make just as much sense to throw it away and make up my own rules to live by. My point is; either the Bible is authoritative or it is not. Our eternal destiny hinges on our view of the Bible; do we accept it as truth or is it something we see as a book of beautiful sayings and moral suggestions?

There are many books of “unsurpassed wonder and beauty” that are not the Word of God. The Bible is concerned with much more than mere rules and regulations; it presents mankind’s lost condition and God’s plan of salvation to deal with our condition.

Your also attempt to present yourself as some sort of victim of Christian intolerance here. Let me remind you that you came onto this site with your ideas. Where your ideas do not line up with the Bible, you can expect to be challenged. However, whenever you are challenged about your views, you claim ‘intolerance’ and say that you are being ‘ridiculed’ and ‘shunned’ etc. In all this, you have never answered any question that I’ve posed to you. You simply come back with how intolerant we are.

You have actually never said what you believe about Jesus’ deity, how to be saved, or the lordship of Christ; you simply came onto the site with your own ideas and expected no one to challenge them.

Let’s cut to the chase here. The overall viewpoint of this website is that the Bible is God’s Word. It is God’s Word to humanity and is the written record of God’s dealings with His people. If you do not believe that, then we are at an impasse.

So, Raoul, what do you believe? About the Bible? About Jesus? About salvation?

Yours in Christ,


Jack Wellman July 24, 2013 at 6:58 pm

As always Robert, your such a grace-filled man of God. Unfortunately, we had to remove Raoul because he was attacking a person rather than addressing the issue and so Raoul’s email and isp (Internet Service Provider) have been blocked. I appreciate your kindness my brother and not responding or lowering yourself to his level. Truly the Holy Spirit is working in you my good friend and brother in Christ and is another reason that I truly thank God for you Robert


Jack Wellman December 3, 2014 at 1:06 pm

Thank you so much Roch…I appreciate that. I worship the Creator God and where He is silent, so must I be.


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