What Do Christians Believe About Dinosaurs?

by Jack Wellman on May 3, 2011 · Print Print · Email Email

When Christians are asked by non-believers to reconcile dinosaurs and the account of creation in Genesis, many questions arise. Is the Bible silent about dinosaurs? Why are dinosaurs apparently never mentioned in scriptures? Did dinosaurs live before or during the time of Adam and Eve and mankind?

We should note that the word “dinosaur”, which means terrible lizard, is a relatively new word that was first used in 1842 and was coined by scientist Richard Owen. This is the reason that the word “dinosaur” doesn’t appear in the Bible which was written well before the 1800‘s.

What The Bible Says About Dinosaurs

Dinosaur-like Creatures Mentioned

In the Book of Job, dinosaur-like creatures are mentioned and so they appear to have existed at the same time that Adam and Eve and their descendants existed. Job is an ancient book. If this book were placed in its true chronological order in the Bible, it would reside within the Book of Genesis since Job lived over 4,000 years ago.

In Psalm 74:13 it says, “It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters.” Isaiah 43:20 reads, “The beast of the field shall honor me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen” and he also writes about a monster (51:9).

Specifically, Are Dinosaurs in the Bible?

Job describes what sounds very much like a dinosaur. Read Job 40:15-24:

15 “Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God, yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it; it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes, or trap it and pierce its nose?”

Some of the translations say that the word “Behemoth” is an elephant or hippo, but there has never been a hippo or elephant that has a tail like a “cedar” (v 17) which is taken from the cedars of Lebanon. The cedars of Lebanon were valued above all timbers in ancient antiquity. They were 130 feet tall and their stout trunks could be over 8 feet in diameter. What elephant or hippo has a tail that size!? Many ancient dinosaurs were up to 150 feet in length like the Brachiosaurus.

Verse 19 says that this enormous creature ranked first in all of God’s works (v 19). Its size allows it to be unfazed by a “raging river” (v 23). It also appears to be irresistible even to humans or other animals that try to “trap it” (v 24).

Elsewhere, Job (41:1-34) describes a creature that inhabits the seas that some translations have mistakenly translated into the word whale. But any Bible with margins that gives the original translation of the word clearly indicates it is not a whale. What whale has razor sharp teeth like iron that can swallow its prey whole (v 14)? Has anyone ever seen a whale or fossil remains of a whale where the weapons of man can not penetrate (v 26-29)? What whale can destroy by simply passing over their prey (v 30) and has no fear whatsoever of anything (v 31-34)? In 2008 the Natural History Museum in Oslo, Norway revealed one of the largest dinosaur sea predator ever found. It is a Pliosaur Kronosaurus which is estimated to be over 50 feet long. The teeth that remain are still sharp enough to cut wood.

Dinosaurs, Fossilization and Extinction

There are hundreds of early British and French explorers and trappers and American explorers and settlers that wrote down reports of sightings of giant mastodon bones still lying on the ground. Many of the Indians they spoke with mentioned them as being in recent memory. The fact is that fossilization does not take millions of years since under the right conditions a bone, an old boot, and even wood can become filled with minerals fairly quickly. Necessary ingredients for fossilization, even in a few thousand years are these; a quick burial under very deep water or volcanic ash.

Consider the Great Flood of Noah’s time — this would have provided excellent conditions for fossilization of plants and animals. There would have been a rapid burial by millions of tons of water and sediment. The fact is that today there are many dinosaur remains that are still not completely turned in to rock and that have not been fossilized; millions of these have been found as bone. Even today they are finding fish fossils that still have a fishy smell to them. The flood may have been the reason that many of the dinosaurs died out. Even the sea creatures would have died since many of their prey could have perished in the flood.

Conclusion

The more we read the Bible, the more we find that dinosaurs are not inconsistent with the scriptures. They could have died from disease, the flood, or in some cases, hunted into extinction. Regardless, it is obvious that the dinosaurs did roam the earth at one time. It is also clear that the Bible makes mention of some creatures that fit their description. Therefore, Christians belief in the Bible and the knowledge of the existence of dinosaurs, are not incompatible. In fact, they are completely compatible with God being the Creator of all life; plants, animals, insects, and mankind.

Did This Article Help?

If this article was helpful feel free to link this to your own blog or share this with others through the social buttons to the left or below. You might also enjoy the below articles related to Bible answers.

Are Guardian Angels Biblical?  –  This article gives a detail look at angels from the Bible along with answering the question in the title.

What is the Unforgivable Sin? –  Is there a sin that you can commit today that is unforgivable to God? Read this to find out.

What is Speaking in Tongues? - Have you ever wondered what the Bible says about speaking in tongues. This article will help to clear this up for you.

Source

The Holy Bible, New International Version (NIV)



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{ 501 comments… read them below or add one }

samuel December 21, 2012 at 11:54 pm

Mr.Wellman, Are you a Minister of a Church?

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Jack Wellman December 22, 2012 at 10:32 am

Yes Samuel. I am a pastor but I am no better than anyone else. You can certainly call me Jack. Thank you for your question sir. PS, I love the name Samuel because it means, ” “God heard”. Also possibly as “requested of God”, “God’s heart” or “God’s name”.

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samuel December 22, 2012 at 12:04 am

Happy New Year 2013!

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Kevin December 30, 2012 at 9:00 am

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days;
– recorded before the great flood Noah’s time.

Yes there are lots of Scriptures to support about dinosaur thing Scripture does not explain specifically in a clear details about things in earth but about a state of a man.

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Kevin December 30, 2012 at 9:02 am

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days;
– recorded before the great flood Noah’s time.

Yes there are lots of Scriptures to support about dinosaur thing Scripture does not explain specifically in a clear details about things in earth but about a state of a man.

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John January 4, 2013 at 4:30 pm

Hello Raoul,
Thanks for your comments. Maybe this will help.

Creation is based on the belief that an intelligent Creator/God purposely designed and put the universe together.
Evolution is based (and being taught) on the belief that life formed from non-living materials and that random chance and millions/billions of highly favorable and innovative mistakes or “mutations” were able to complement and build upon one another to create all the life forms which exist today, and to your point all the ones that have become extinct. Think about what this really means. No one person here on earth has ever started/created life from non-living materials. We know all the ingredients and can include every element need. We can create any environment state that we can imagine, add heat, electricity, water….whatever you like, but no one is even remotely come close to starting life. Ask yourself why is this? Do you believe the earth did this on its own. Do you believe life came to earth on an asteroid or comet? Sure we know LIFE evolves but what we are being taught is that non-living materials with zero intelligents, has inexplicably/ miraculously started “LIFE”

Only one of these beliefs can be true. Either we evolved from non-living materials, or life was designed and created. If it turns out we were Created, then this means that there are absolutes, and that everything is NOT relative, because the fact that we have been Created (by a Creator) is (or would be), in itself, an absolute truth: whether or not the Creator created us directly from “the dust of the ground” as we are told in Genesis (2:7, 9, 19), or indirectly by selecting and establishing the Laws of nature, and organizing the first self-replicating and organisms (pick one), and letting them “take their course.”
Neither the Creationist nor Evolutionist views are based solely on science, for they both make assumptions about the past that cannot be verified by any present methods or experiments and are therefore are believed by FAITH not science. Therefore, since no one can demonstrate how it happened, or even how the first living cell (somehow and against all odds) got itself started stayed alive and learned to replicate, you are left to decide. What is great is that you are free to make up your own mind regarding who is right and how it occurred, and we should all be free to speak our minds in any public forum without fear of offending those who have very likely been miss lead by the Mass Media to believe something that (based on the “odds” alone) cannot be true.

Also, if you believe that God directed the process of CREATION, or that He started the first living cells and the Laws that allow for life to exist, and put them in a suitable environment, and then allowed “mother nature” to “take over” and Create all of the various and wondrous forms of life that we see around us — over millions of years, then you believe in Slow Creation: not evolution.
Furthermore, if it turns out that God did, in fact, spontaneously Create every different life-form that ever existed on this planet within any matter of days or period of time, then many other truths would result from this one absolute truth: including moral truths of right and wrong. In other words, if there is a Creator / God, (which there is) then He can/will establish and declare what is right and wrong, and hold us accountable for opposing or ignoring His direction or His plans or for violating His moral laws of right and wrong that are said to be “written in their hearts.” Romans 2:15.

Note:
Mycoplasma genitalium was chosen as the model for the Minimal Genome Project, as it was the species with the smallest number of genes known at that time with the ability to replicate itself. Mycoplasma genitalium was used as an example because we know the entire protein content of a cell. The point was to explain how absolutely complex even the most basic form of life is not that Mycoplasma genitalium was the most basic life form.

Hope that helps. Now go to church. : )

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Tim June 1, 2014 at 12:21 am

Amen.Wow this might be one of the most intelligent things outside the bible I have ever read.

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Jack Wellman June 1, 2014 at 1:17 pm

Thank you so much Tim for your comment. It was very encouraging sir.

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Jack January 5, 2013 at 11:47 am

For what seems to be God’s foolishness is wiser than human Wisdom,and what seems to be God’s weakness is stronger than Human strength (1 Corinthians 1:25)—-Your Faith then does not rest on human wisdom but on God’s Power (1 Corinthians 2:5)—-Heaven and Earth will pass away,but my words will never pass away (Luke 21:33)—-So then,as the one sin condemned all people,in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life.And just as all people were made sinners as the result of the disobedience of one man,in the same way they will all be put right with God as the result of the obedience of the one man.Law was introduced in order to increase wrongdoing;but where sin increased,God’s GRACE Increased Much More.So then,just as sin ruled by means of death,so all God’s GRACE Rules by means of Righteousness,leading us to eternal life through Jesus Christ Our Lord (Romans 5:18-21)—-For Christ has brought the law to an end,so that everyone who believes is put right with God (Romans 10:4)—-I urge you my friends:watch out for those who cause divisions and upset peoples faith and go against the teaching which you have received.Keep away from them!for those who do such things are not serving Christ our Lord,But their own appetites.By their fine words and flattering speach they deceive innocent people (Romans 16:17-18)—-It is Love,then,that you should strive for.Set your hearts on spiritual gifts,especially the gift of proclaiming God’s Message (1 Corinthians 14:1)

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Jack Wellman January 5, 2013 at 11:58 am

Amen Jack. From one Jack to another, truly “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands” (Psalm 19:1) “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Rom 1:20) “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them” (Rom 1:19) yet mankind refused to give God glory and attributes the creation to time, space, & chance.

We need to be united in the things that are essential and not divide over the non-essentials. Thank you Jack. God says He created all things and to ascribe it to any other cause or reasons robs God of His glory.

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Jack January 5, 2013 at 10:20 pm

Amen Jack, and yes two Jacks is better than one,But as I’m sure you know, four Jack’s can never beat Our One King

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Dennis Wooten January 25, 2013 at 1:16 pm

I am an old country boy with very little knowledge regarding evolution. I, however, have placed my faith in Jesus Christ and believe him to be the God of the Universe, capable of creating and sustaining all life. I have but one simple comment to leave for all involved in this interesting discussion.

“If I, as a Christian, am right about my belief in God and the necessity of placing total faith into him for salvation and eternal life, then you as a person who may not believe in this type trust, will lose everything in eternity if I am correct. I, on the other hand, will lose nothing at all if you are correct, for in your world, there is no eternity for the soul of man. I certainly hope you understand the risk, for if I am right and you are wrong, you will spend an eternity separated from God, with no hope.” I pray you will receive Christ as your savior. You should read the entire chapter of Romans 5. Simple faith is not stupidity, it is total freedom.

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Jack Wellman January 25, 2013 at 1:22 pm

Amen Mr. Wooten. You have reduced the argument to the simplest form. Believe in God, trust Him and take Him as His Word. He is Creator. That is all I need to know. Thank you sir.

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jamie October 31, 2013 at 3:29 pm

what a beautiful explanation of salvation :) Amen.

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Seeker November 3, 2013 at 4:47 am

This quaint argument is otherwise known as “Pascals Wager” ; which was refuted in his own lifetime.
The converse argument (though I suspect none of you are ‘really’ interested – preferring instead to confirm your own bias in the face of contradictory evidence) is;
Suppose Zeus is “The One True God” and will be very angry and vengeful over those people who believed in other gods above him, but be lenient on those people who believed in nothing because all of the available evidence seems to suggest there is no god or gods other than in the human imagination.
Are you prepared for an eternity swimming in the River Styx? Have you got an apology ready for Zeus when he judges you on why you ignored his teachings, even after learning about his existence?
Or – are you just hedging your bets that Zeus turns out to be a folk-myth made up by a pre-enlightened society?
If you apply that methodology to Zeus – then why not Yahweh?

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Jack Wellman November 3, 2013 at 6:41 pm

Lets see….are there any historians that wrote about a real Zeus? Any archeological evidence of Zeus? Any written records of eyewitnesses of Zeus? Any evidence that Zeus could save anyone from sins? Any evidence that Zeus died and was raised from the dead. Opps…answer to all, NO! For Jesus? Yes! i.e. The list of historians are enormous:

Pliny the Younger (62-114AD)
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus (75-130AD)
Cornelius Tacitus (55-120AD)
Pontius Pilate’s wife’s written letter Recollections of the last occurrences from the Life of The Jesus Christ (she was known to believe that He was from God)
Publius Lentulus (ruler of Judea) wrote a letter to Roman emperor Tiberius (resides in a private library in England, found 1865 AD).
Pontius Pilate, Roman governor, wrote a report to Roman Caesar Tiberius in Jerusalem, 28.III 4147.year since creation)
Celsus (170 AD)
Lucian of Samoset (160 AD)
Tacitus (70 AD; Annals, AD 115-120), )
Others included Africanus, Origen, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Eusebius of Caesarea, and even the Syrian philosopher, Mara Bar-Serapion, Galen (AD 150; De pulsuum differentiis 2.4; 3.3) Celsus (True Discourse, AD 170), Mara Bar Serapion (pre AD-200?), and the Jewish Talmudic References (AD 300), Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, and Eusebius of Caesarea…

Let count again: Zeus 0
Jesus hundreds! No context. I hope your Zeus can saye you. All the evidence doesn’t only suggest but proves Zeus is a myth but Jesus is real. You will know someday…but then it will be too late (Rev 20:11-15).

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Samuel A. Huber March 31, 2014 at 4:00 pm

Seeker & others,
I have been noticing a bunch of folks have been referring to our heavenly father by his sacred name.

Just F.Y.I. for everyone, it is not “Yahweh”.
It is in the manuscripts almost 7,000 times as YHVH, not YHWH.

Just wanted to get that out there.

Thank you.
Humbly,
Samuel A. Huber

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Mr A Cotton January 27, 2013 at 6:44 am

I watched a six part series called Catastrophe.
The time scale was that vast they used a 24hr clock,each minute representing 3 million yrs. I will try and be brief.
It showed the Earth,and nothing could live on it,because of many things. No oxygen.
That changed dramatically when another planet crashed into Earth.Then there was a Snowball Earth,and you could not survive on there either.
Then it showed geologist after geologist showing you the facts,and you could not ague with them.
One geologist showed you these lovely plants,but he said they would not grow in that period.
The key words what the narrater kept saying was if that did not happen we would not be here. So to me by him saying this repeatedly each catastrophe was contradictory to the other catastrophe.Back to the plants,and God.
God made these plants,and it would be up to God to destroy them.God could make them grow anywhere, evan on molten laver. I am not interested about evolution,or what science can prove.God is the one that creates things,regardless of us human beginnings. It is far beyond our feeble brains. He is a GOD!

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anonymous February 6, 2013 at 7:38 pm

you guys have waaaayyyy too much time on your hands.

i came here to find out if anyone could explain how scientists believe that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago whereas the bible states that the earth is only a few thousand years ago.

i do not know much about the bible and i am just trying to find my way to God but all you guys have succeeded in doing, is making me confused.

so please stop this foolish exchange of views jack, robert, raoul or whoever you are.

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Jack Wellman February 6, 2013 at 7:48 pm

Thank you Anonymous. It was not intentional spending so much time on subjects but when you have a hunger to learn more about the Bible and God then it is hard to turn off. I myself am an under-shepherd at a local church, plus I work (being a bi-vocational pastor that supports himself), and I write and comment on this website too. I do apologize sir if I have been offensive to you (apparently so) so please allow me to say I am sorry. Please forgive me. What is it that we can help you on about knowing more about God and we will stick to that subject?

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Jack Wellman February 6, 2013 at 7:49 pm

By the way, the reason I said, “I myself am an under-shepherd at a local church, plus I work (being a bi-vocational pastor that supports himself), and I write and comment on this website too” is to prove to you that really I have too little time on my hands and somehow manage life too. Whew!

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Muherman Harun February 3, 2014 at 9:33 pm

Dear Jack,
Genesis chapter one is dealing about creation of the universe, the world with its large continents and oceans.
The followin chapter goes about the Garden of Eden a small peace of land in presumably Irak between the Euphrat and the tigris rivers with Adam and Eve being central, So are the Israeli central in the Old Testament.. Nor Adam or the Israeli were aware that the wgorld is like giant globe created by God.
150 million years to 60 million years ago, the dinosaurs have lived and are extinct afterwards.
During the time of Adam approx 6000 years ago, dinosaurs were unknown.
May I have your opinion? Thanks a lot.
Muherman Harun Jakarta Indonesia

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Jack Wellman February 3, 2014 at 9:50 pm

Thank you for your comment. You said “Nor Adam or the Israeli were aware that the world is like giant globe created by God.” Are you saying that Israel didn’t know the earth was a globe created by God? Yes, they do. Also, if God said it, I believe it and if you re-read all the Scriptural verses mentioned in this article, then you must realize that they were still around when mankind, in the very early years, co-existed because. Reliable historians and noted historical figures like Herodotus, Ulysses Aldrovandus, Pliny the Elder, and Marco Polo, all of these men recorded seeing different types of creatures that they called dragons. The Bible, which has proven itself to be one of the most accurate ancient historical records that we have today, also records information about the dragon, and it also mentions leviathan, behemoth, cockitrice, fiery serpent, and fiery flying serpent which all, to some extent, fit the description of “prehistoric” and now-extinct reptiles. Follow the hyperlinks on the name of each creature to see what the Bible has to say about each of them. Descriptions of two fantastical creatures, known as behemoth and leviathan, are found in the book of Job. The author of this book was apparently Job himself, who lived in the land of Uz (see Job 1:1). Based on the book’s description of his wealth and family life, Job appears to have been a patriarch and a contemporary of Abraham. Thus, the book of Job is even older than Genesis, written many years later by Abraham’s descendant, Moses.

Job was probably written in the first centuries after the worldwide Flood, soon after the Tower of Babel. If Jewish tradition is correct and we received the book through Moses, he may have received it during his years in the land of Midian (near Uz). The first eleven chapters of Genesis were probably written by Adam, Noah, the sons of Noah, and Terah, and later edited or assembled by Moses, together with his own historical writings, to form the book of Genesis.

The book of Job is filled with allusions to early life after the Tower of Babel. As Bible commentator Henry M. Morris notes, Job “contains more references to creation, the Flood and other primeval events than any book of the Bible except Genesis . . . . Remarkably, it also seems to contain more modern scientific insights than any other book of the Bible.”

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Timothy March 2, 2013 at 8:54 pm

Try looking up http://www.creationtoday.org/about/eric-hovind/ I found this very helpful.

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Hello April 29, 2013 at 2:19 pm

“i do not know much about the bible and i am just trying to find my way to God..”

I don’t see what is so confusing. Isn’t that what this site is for? To learn. Take a deep breath, read the Bible and learn at God’s pace young lad. Best wishes.

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Matt June 16, 2013 at 10:20 am

Or you having got enough time to consider what you asked properly, looking for quick simple answers will sometimes leave you confused. For instance the reason scientists say that dinosaurs lived 40 million years ago is by carbon dating however this technique is not 100% accurate, also where in the bible does it say that earth is only a few thousand years old ?

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jeff October 14, 2013 at 5:34 pm

Matt,

You said “this technique is not 100% accurate”, but we also use hundreds of other dating methods, comparing and contrasting them to one another to verify the age. Carbon-dating is most definitely not the only means of dating that we have.

Also, I would say to the original poster that the Bible never says that the Earth is a few thousand years old. This theory, otherwise known as Young Earth Creationism, is entirely created by human beings in an attempt to find some form of dating in the bible. For that matter, the actual age is different depending on who you ask. Some scholars believe it to be six thousand years, while others believe it to be twenty thousand. Personally, I think it’s all futile.

The bible is a spiritual guidebook, not a scientific textbook. Many biblical scholars all throughout history view the Genesis creation story as a myth, intended for the audience of its time and that it is largely metaphorical. Not all Christians believe it is 100% literal. In fact, the Catholic Church’s official stance is that it is NOT literal and consider it, in fact, to be an epic myth.

You are welcome to believe what you want, but these are the facts. Interpret them however you will.

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Samuel A. Huber March 31, 2014 at 4:14 pm

Anonymous,

The Bible does NOT state the earth is only a few thousand years old. This earth AGE is young but there was an age before this one. I don’t know how you came up with “a few thousand years ago.” If one were only considering the length of this current 2nd AGE then, God created people on the 6th day and since a day with the lord is as a thousand years with man then that would be 6,000 years in. On the 7th day he rested, = 7,000 years in. On the 8th day he created Adam and Eve in 4,004B.C., = 8,000 years in. So 8,000 + 4,004 = 12,004 years to get us to 0. Now add the 2,014 years on this side of 0 and you would have 14,018 years from day 1 up to now.

There was an age before this one that God destroyed because of Satan’s rebellion and his subsequent overthrow by God. The earth is millions if not billions of years old, science proves it by fossils and many other ways.

I’m always saying… SO many people do not realize that between Gen. 1:1 & 1:2 millions if not more than likely billions of years passed. Vs. 2 is in the beginning of this 2nd AGE that we are in now.

Peace out.
Humbly,
Samuel A. Huber

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Eric March 6, 2013 at 3:25 pm

I’m gay. Is that a sin?

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Jack Wellman March 6, 2013 at 3:28 pm

Eric, thank you for your question sir. Please read what the Bible says in this article called “What Does the Bible Say About Same-Sex Marriage?” at:

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-same-sex-marriage-is-it-sin/

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Patricia Schneider March 11, 2013 at 7:34 am

Hello, Pastor Jack! Neat article about dinosaurs! Real over some of the 419 comments…whew~! There are so many souls that are confused and need prayers for God’s Holy Spirit to unhardened their hearts and see the TRUTH of God’s Plan in their lives. I pray for them to continue viewing “What Christians Want To Know’ site or have access to other true Christians beliefs, and someday be able to take that ‘leap of faith.’ In Jesus’ Precious Name, Amen.
Have wondered about others’ gods (the Greeks, Romans, Jews, etc. I’m aware the Israelite are the followers of God’s Covenants. Is that one reason Israel is now under attack from neighboring countries, because they have broken the Covenants with God, refusing to accept Jesus as their Savior?
I’m also aware that many Jews have accepted Christ. Wonder if I were born a Jew in 1948, would I have had the blessing of knowing and loving Sweet Jesus? (If I’m wrong about the Israelite having present day wars & battles because of their refusal to accept Jesus, please correct me, Pastor Jack. OK?) Definitely DON’T want to sound judgmental here!
You and Robert Driskell have so much PATIENCE with the commentators! I saw no ‘ridicule’ in your replies to Raoul Duke, you just wanted him to ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS! Right? He really needs our prayers!
God’s many blessings upon you, Pastor Jack, and your family!
Always in Christ, Jesus…Patty
(Really enjoy science-fiction books and movies. Believe God has given us imagination. Have you ever watched ‘Star Trek,’ ‘Deep Space Nine,’ ‘Babylon 5,’ or ‘Voyager’ on TV? They’re just fascinating! But of course, not as ‘fascinating’ as Our Heavenly Father, His Son, Jesus, and His Holy Spirit! Amen!

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Jack Wellman March 11, 2013 at 11:29 am

I am with you on science fiction Patty. In fact, when I was young I loved Isaac Asimov and Ray Bradberry science fiction books. I love Star Trek too….even now. Thank you for your words of grace Patty…as always.

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tom April 4, 2013 at 10:50 am

hello all,
What are your opinions on other religions and faiths?Do you believe they are all wrong and Christianity is right?
And what are your opinions on same sex couples?Are they a sinner even though they do not choose to be?
Also id like to know your thoughts about people who have turned their lives around, without ‘finding god/religion’ to help them.
All replies appreciated x

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Jack Wellman April 4, 2013 at 12:40 pm

Thank you for your questions Tom.

My opinions are worthless compared to what Jesus said. He says that I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” in John 14:6. He did not say I am one of the ways or one of many ways but “THE” way and there is no other way (Acts 4:12). My opinion is not important next to what God says.

As for same sex couples, we are all sinners and we all choose to sin over not sinning and so homosexuals are not helpless victims any more than I used to be a helpless victim of drug abuse and selling drugs to others. For much more than I can give you here, we have an article that is full of Bible verses that declare that same sex marriages or couples are sin at:

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-about-same-sex-marriage-is-it-sin/

I am glad some have turned their lives around without religion of finding God. What does this prove though? What is their ultimate fate after death? Will their “turning their lives around” help them on Judgment Day?

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tom April 4, 2013 at 1:03 pm

first thank you for your reply,
In response to your reply of ‘what does this prove though?’.I would say that it is evidence that on the inside, people have the drive to do things themselves/turn their lives around.

Do you think a good person of no faith is a bad person in the eyes of god?

Thanks

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Jack Wellman April 4, 2013 at 1:33 pm

Thanks for being so gracious with your words Tom. I appreciate that. In Luke 18:19 “Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.”

To answer your question, which comes up frequently and is a good question, we have an article that answers this called “Who Goes to Heaven? Do Good People Go to Heaven?” at:

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/who-goes-to-heaven-do-good-people-go-to-heaven/

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Maddie April 17, 2013 at 12:12 pm

I think Raoul raises a lot of intelligent and important questions that are ultimately defined as “unchristian” and dismissed. This is unfortunate, since a lot of christians struggle with believing in both well-founded scientific research, and the teachings of the bible.

As a rational human being, and a faithful believer in God, it is preposterous to me to dismiss what paleontologists and scientists have discovered since the bible was written. I think it is damaging to Christianity to tell people the Earth is only 6,000 years old and dinosaurs and Homo sapiens, as we are now, used to roam the earth at the same time. This is just too simple- massive amounts of research and actual discoveries made over hundreds of years by educated people rationally explain that the world is millions of years old, that dinosaurs died millions of years before humans were here, and that humans have evolved from other primitive versions of ourselves.

Now, if a christian could actually disprove these theories with equal amounts of real research and physical data supporting the world only being 6,000 years old, etc.- there would be a debate to be had. But, of course, no such real data exists. Insteading of using solid, physical proof- the reasoning lies in english translations of a small handful of bible verses written down thousands of years ago. A couple bible verses about a monster with a tail like “a cedar” is not sufficient evidence to disprove the overwhelming amounts of actual knowledge acquired by hundreds of years of research. And no rational person can support that argument.

There is, obviously, a terrible danger is taking the bible so literally. There are many. The more christians demand that their perspective is correct and undeniable, the more credibility they lose as the world learns more about our physical history and origins, and the more ridiculous we look by trying to combat scientific knowledge with a handful of bible verses with absolutely no physical evidence supporting them. And no christian supporting these views has studied paleontology to the extent of scientists, which makes their arguments seem, honestly, just stupid. I think the obvious reason for this is that everyone that delves into the world of paleontology that deeply has to eventually abandon their true and honest belief that the world is only 6,000 years old, etc.

Believing in evolution, and embracing the new found facts of the world we continue to uncover, is not the denial of God. It is simply the denial of an absolute literal translation of the Bible. Whether that’s “okay” with you or not is up to you. But trying to explain away hundreds of years of physical evidence and factually based theories of the history of the world with such weak arguments is childish and dangerous to those who seek to embrace truth and God as one reality.

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Jack Wellman April 17, 2013 at 4:44 pm

Thank you for your comment Maddie. No where in this article is there a reference to the earth being only 6,000 years old. Where do you come up with that conclusion based upon this article? You said that these are “weak arguments is childish and dangerous to those who seek to embrace truth.” Ouch. Not so nice. How is it dangerous? What do you mean by this? Who exactly is in “danger” and what danger are people in? Is it serious danger?

By the way, we have an article that is called “Does the Bible Teach How Old the Earth is? at: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/does-the-bible-teach-how-old-the-earth-is/

I would suggest you check it out. Now, did Jesus believe in evolution? In Matthew 19:4-6, He answers the question about divorce from the Pharisees saying, “4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? ‘ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate.” So God did not create amoebas after the amoeba kind or single-celled creatures after the single-celled creature kinds. Was Jesus wrong about God creating Adam and Eve as recorded in Genesis. Is Genesis wrong?

Did Jesus believe the Story of Noah’s Ark and the Worldwide Flood? Big time yes on this. In Matthew 24:37 He speaks of the end times, saying “As in the days of Noah, so shall also be the coming of the Son of Man be”. It is apparent that Jesus did believe in the story of Noah’s Ark and thus, by extension, the Global Flood.

Did Jesus Believe Jonah Was Swallowed by a Great Fish? Yes He did. In Matthew 12 some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, “Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.” He said to them in reply, “An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. Just as Jonah was in the belly of a great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. Jesus speaks of Jonah and this necessarily included him being swallowed by a “great fish”, not a whale as is supposed and which is not in the original Hebrew. So Jesus certainly believed this to be true and not a mythological story or an analytical piece of literary work.

Apparently Jesus believed in every word of God in the Bible in which He quoted and what He quoted about Adam and Eve being created, about the flood, and Jonah was true and it is not preposterous to believe what the Bible says for Jesus quoted it. I believe Jesus and every word that is in the Bible. To deny that God created fiat (instantly) is to deny God’s Word and that He created Adam and Eve and not created them using millions of years. The Garden didn’t start out with amoeba’s and evolving into Adam and Eve. What you propose does more harm than speaking what the Bible teaches.

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Robert April 17, 2013 at 6:39 pm

Hello Maddie,
Despite having been indoctrinated with the theory of evolution for twelve years of public school, I have come to the conclusion that creation explains the existence of the universe (including you and I) far better than the theory of evolution. For the last 20 years, I have studied both the theory of evolution and the Creation record. The theory of evolution is bankrupt. Evolutionists are constantly bringing up this phantom evidence that, quite frankly, does not exist. The evidence is the same for both creation scientists and evolutionists, exactly the same. Each group has EXACTLY the same observational data from which to postulate and draw conclusions. The creation scientist believes God created everything, the evolutionist believes nothing created it. There is no “hundreds of years of physical evidence and factually based theories” of which you speak. The evidence for evolution is merely conjecture based on the exact same facts that every scientist (every human, for that matter) has access to.
Your comments tell me that you do not believe the Bible, so may I ask you, “On what do you base your belief in God?” You stated you are a “faithful believer in God”; however, if you don’t believe the BIble, on what do you base your beliefs? If the Bible is the Word of God (as most Christians believe), then it is far more dangerous to NOT take it literally than it would be to believe it. So, if we don’t need to take the biblical account of creation literally, do we have to take the biblical account of Jesus’ payment for our sins on the cross literally? I also noticed that you refer to Christians as “they”; you say you believe in God, but are you a Christian? Have you given you all to Jesus Christ, the One who paid for your sins, and mine, on a cross?
I’m going to be perfectly blunt here, what professing Christians do, when they believe in evolution, is to put the theories of secular scientists above God’s word. They say, “Well, God couldn’t have created the univese, as the Bible says, because secular, naturalistic, God-rejecting scientist say that that’s impossible.” Maddie, taking the Bible literally is not the danger here; the danger is in rejecting God’s revelation to man in favor of man’s musings about God.
It amazes me that so many, who call themselves ‘believers’, try so hard to cast doubt on the Bible. I will stand on God’s Word by myself, if necessary. And, if my attitude seems childish, so be it. Remember that Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3 ESV).
Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Samuel A. Huber December 30, 2013 at 1:35 pm

Thank you Jack,
I really enjoyed the article you posted a link to for Maddie about how old the earth is, it was very good.

It seems to be rare to find people who notice the fact that the time between Gen, 1:1 & 1:2 is quite probably millions or billions of years, and the possibilities that could be within.

Respectfully,
Samuel A. Huber

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Ria Mae April 22, 2013 at 5:24 am

Sir, I have a question, according to your statement regarding to the extinction of the dinosaurs, you says that, probably they were being wiped out by the flood during Noah’s time, then a thought came into my mind, that God told Noah to bring all kinds of animals by 2’s and some are by 7. Is that possible that Noah did not included the dinosaurs to get inside the ark, because of their size and the fact that they are dangerous? I’m just a little confused and get a hard time explaining to my kids the detailed reason why they cannot see dinosaurs today. Thanks!

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Jack Wellman April 22, 2013 at 12:17 pm

Thank you Mrs. Mae. The Bibles says that “all kinds” were brought into the Ark but it does not say every kind or every kind of animal or reptile (which dinosaurs are). If Noah did bring in dinosaurs, then they were of a young age. I do not believe that they were. I believe the dinosaurs could have even been gone before this but we just don’t know enough and the Bible is not really a science book or a book about the heavens (and earth) but about how to get there.

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Robert April 22, 2013 at 3:31 pm

Hi Ria Mae,
Here are a few articles that you might like to read. They provide clear, intelligent, God-honoring answers to the questions some have concerning Noah and the Flood. God bless you.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2000/07/26/dinosaurs-on-the-ark

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2000/04/03/dinosaurs-on-noahs-ark

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2/caring-for-the-animals

http://creation.com/were-dinosaurs-on-noahs-ark

Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Jack Wellman April 22, 2013 at 6:20 pm

Thank you Robert. Excellent resources my friend. I do appreciate…no, I thank God for you brother.

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John April 29, 2013 at 2:50 am

I just accepted Jesus as my savior a few weeks ago, but I still had a lot of questions. One of the big ones was dinosaurs and how they fit into the whole picture. Thank you sir for your wonderful article. It answered so many questions for me. God bless.

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Jack Wellman April 29, 2013 at 11:03 am

Congratulations John. Welcome to the family of God. I praise you my Lord Jesus for John’s salvation.

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David May 3, 2013 at 7:38 am

Good people, is there not room on this good (but seriously warming) earth and many loving people for God AND carbon dating?

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jeff November 3, 2013 at 9:33 pm

Lol I know right? People think evolution and God can’t coexist, but I seem to find it a rather easy belief to uphold.

Yes, I believe in both God and evolution. Deal with it.

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Erica May 10, 2013 at 11:20 am

Dear Mr Wellman,

Your article is really helping me. Thank you.
God bless you.

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Brother Steveo May 15, 2013 at 10:11 am

Bless you Robert & Jack

Atheists!??

If anything now exists, something must be eternal. Or else something not eternal must have emerged from nothing, which is illogical.

“If your plan is to turn to God at the 11th hour, pray you don’t die at 10:30″

╬ God Bless All ╬

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Francis Light June 6, 2013 at 6:44 am

dear pastor Jack I see Job lived after the flood because genealogy noah not mention about name of Job or Job lived before Noah? Now make me confused.

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Jack Wellman June 6, 2013 at 9:44 pm

Hello Francis. Job lived shortly after Abraham because some of Job’s friends were descendants of Abraham and Issac so Job likely lived after the flood but during the time of Abraham and Issac and likely during Jacob’s time or just afterwards. This was quite a bit later than the flood. Noah’s descendants did not mention everyone that lived which would be impossible to mention them all due to lack of space in the Bible. Job, therefore, lived several hundred years after the flood but not that long after Abraham and may have been living during Jacob’s time.

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Francis Light June 7, 2013 at 5:26 am

oh I see….I’d know one way and the truth in our own eyes can see the way how dinosaurs could become extinct

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Jack Wellman June 7, 2013 at 8:13 am

Thank you Francis. I am so glad for your visiting the website and your comments.

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Francis Light June 7, 2013 at 9:19 am

until we going to heaven we can see a dinosaur, this is a only way…..

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Francis Light June 7, 2013 at 9:25 am

until we going to heaven we can see a dinosaur, this is a only way…..

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Mia June 23, 2013 at 9:35 pm

Hello,

I have read a lot of threads in this page…and I find it amusing to see both sides proving their points.

I believe every question could be answered by FAITH. I mean, faith cannot be proven or disproved. Correct me if I’m wrong.

I have faith in God. I have a degree in biology. I teach biology. My students usually ask me if I believe in the theory of evolution. I always reply, “I don’t.” And I share with them God’s love and His plans for us.

Yes, my current status may be confusing because I am a believer and biologist at the same time. There are also some instances when I have doubts about me, God, His plans, and His love. Despite some inconsistencies, one thing I am sure of: I have faith in God, and this faith makes every thing clear. Although I become unfaithful in some bad days, He remains faithful.

God bless us all.

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Seeker July 24, 2013 at 12:58 pm

What about small dinosaurs?

Not all of them were huge and terrible… some were the size of small birds.

Why is there no mention of the many, many different types of dinosaur revealed in the fossil record?

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Jack Wellman July 24, 2013 at 1:13 pm

The Bible is not written to address paleontology or a book about the heavens but a book on how to get to heaven. The obvious reason that smaller types of dinosaurs are not mentioned is because the Bible can not possibly list every species there are because the Bible was not written with that intention. The fossil records are clear and so is there really a need to mention the thousands upon thousands of dinosaurs? Job was addressing the largest of these so that the greatness of God is seen in the context of His creation. Does this make sense Seeker? Thank you my friend for your question.

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Raoul Duke July 24, 2013 at 4:00 pm

Robert: I am going to assume you are an honest and good man who really, really wants to believe that this life is not “all there is” and who – like most folks (unfortunately) have an intense fear of death and will grasp anything that helps them alieviate that fear. You are not alone – and people have been trying to understand the world and their relationship to it for a very long time. Many believe (as I once did) that they bible gives them the answers to some of those hard questions they seek. Nothing new in this striving and nothing new in the sense that people have “found” those answers. People believed that since the dawn of human consciousness and will believe some form of it long after the current crop of religious/mythical beliefs are relegated to the ash heap of history just as they have been in the past. Do you know that the egyptian civilization had a rich and deep religious tradition that involved worshiping the sun god Ra that lasted for thousands of years – much longer than Christianity has been around?

But that is not the point of my reply. The point is to address your comment:

“We are not free to construct our own religion by picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we deem authentic.”

So Robert – you must be Catholic – is that correct? I believe the church that was started after Jesus was executed and by his direct followers is what we today call the Catholic Church.

Now Robert – we both know you do not really believe what you wrote there so lets stop fooling around here. It is really not productive or useful to make such erroneous statements that everyone knows are flat-out false. It hurts your credibility and damages the cause you seek to defend.

So I am not going to just call you a liar and move on. I am going to show you the error in your ways and then take you by the hand and walk you toward the light.

Currently there are (estimates vary) between 40,000 and 60,000 different Christian denominations or sects. (let’s just pick the 50,000 number for convenience). A denomination or “sect” is a “identifiable religious body under a common name, structure, and doctrine.” See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

You said Christians do not pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe or are “authentic.” Would you like to retract that erroneous statement now in the face of the fact that apparently members in at least 50,000 denominations do not agree with you and I do not agree with you.

And this number obviously does not include all those well-meaning christians that other christians killed, burned, tortured or otherwise “persuaded” to be a member of one of these 50,000 “versions” of the faith – based on at least 50,000 different interpretations of the bible, what it says and what it means.

Now I do not intend to gloat because I am right and you are, not just wrong – but horribly wrong. No – I won’t do that. And if you REALLY believe what you wrote I suspect you are feeling a bit sheepish right now having been shown that your own faith is the exact opposite of what you have claimed. You must have a lot to learn and that is a good thing because education leads to enlightenment. Lack of education leads to people believing in things that are just not true. Like your statement that there is only one version of god’s word.

I suspect you know that the bible you read (whatever version it is) is a translation. By definition then – it is an approximation of the original. Nobody disputes that Aramic does not translate well to english – and it certainly does not translate well to English when you put a translation to Greek in between. One simple example proves the point and the problem. IN the book of Matthew, the author “translates” a term from the old testament that means “young woman” into the term “virgin.” Bible Scholars no longer even argue about this mistake that the author of Matthew made in translating the prophecy from Isaiah. The original Isaiah passage uses the term “young woman” and Matthew made a mistake – a mistranslation. Now do you think that saying that the messiah would be born to a “young woman” is a different meaning than saying he would be born to a “virgin.”

Of course it is different. There is NO prophecy in the OT claiming that the messiah will be born to a “virgin.” Did you know that in every other instance of the same word being used in the OT and the NT (the word Isaiah used and Matthew got wrong) it is translated into english as “young woman.” Isn’t that amazing. Isn’t it fascinating that for more than a thousand years people wrote ane acted on the belief that Matthew did not error – and then we discover that he just made a mistake.

That is just a fact. Do you chose to ignore that fact Robert – like you choose (apparently) to believe something that is so clearly wrong as to be beyond dispute (That there is only one true/accurate version of the bible and every christian agrees on what it is and what it says and what it means).

I better stop now for as I write it occurs to me that you really do not know of these well understood facts that are not even disputed by any of the “experts”.

I hope have have not overturned your applecart – but I think you will be fine for you are likely one who is going to believe his “version” no matter what. Fear will do that to you.

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Jack Wellman July 24, 2013 at 4:22 pm

Hello Raoul. To insinuate that Robert is Catholic, and by the way, what is wrong with being Catholic, you err yourself. I have known Robert for some time and this man’s passionate pursuit of the truth doesn’t make him wrong. By the way, there are also over 50,0000 different dialects in the world and so must we assume they are all wrong just because they are different? that is erroneous logic my friend. That is like saying the hundreds of thousands of species are wrong because they are all so different. The translation of “young women” in the Jewish vernacular is the same thing as being a virgin…or did you not know that? You are making assumptions falsely because Luke says 1:27 “ad virginem desponsatam viro cui nomen erat Ioseph de domo David et nomen virginis Maria.” Even Young’s Literal Translation of Luke 1:27 says “to a virgin, betrothed to a man, whose name is Joseph, of the house of David, and the name of the virgin is Mary.”

Then you said to Robert “Now Robert – we both know you do not really believe what you wrote there so lets stop fooling around here.” Oh really? Can you read a person’s heart or see into their mind and read it? Fascinating. What am I thinking right now? Can you tell? I don’t think so. You are dead wrong to saying that Christians choose “which parts of the bible to believe or are “authentic.” You are right about a lack of education but it is your lack of education on the original Greek and Latin Vulgate which are accurate translations of the Bible. Where did you study Greek or Latin or get your degree in biblical studies like Robert. I know Robert’s educational background is extensive and his degree is “educated” based upon scholarly works. I suggest you stop blaspheming God and by your accusation that Jesus was not virgin born, then you are saying that Jesus is not Who He said He was.

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Robert July 24, 2013 at 5:38 pm

Hi Raoul,
Nice to hear from you again. Let me say that you should never assume anything. In this case your assumptions are patently incorrect; therefore, your conclusions are also incorrect. With all due respect, I have learned from our past encounters that you don’t really care about any of that, you merely seek to belittle my beliefs and salve your own lost soul by presenting arguments against God. Let me say, friend, that is a foolish venture, sort of like banging your head against a wall hoping to make it move.

I am not a Catholic (which you define incorrectly, by the way).

I have no fear of death at all (not a big fan of dying painfully, but no fear of what comes after)

Old Egyptian myths should concern me (or you) at all. While Egyptian myths preceded Christianity, they did not precede the truth of God, which is laid out for us in the Old Testament. Christianity is the fulfillment of the Old Testament beginnings and, since God predates everything, is much older than any other myth concerning anything.

I believe the Word of God with all my heart. The witness of His Holy Spirit lives in my heart reaffirming minute by minute the love, justice, power, and salvation of the one Holy Creator.

I did not say “Christians do not pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe or are “authentic””. As you seem to have so quickly forgotten (you just typed it), I said, “We are not free to construct our own religion by picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we deem authentic”. Therefore, I will not retract my statement, which is not at all erroneous. Christians, as well as non-believers such as yourself, certainly do pick and choose what they want to believe. However, God made the rules and we must go by them or we are in rebellion against Him…simple. There are doctrines which must be believed in order for one to be a Christian. Then, there are those doctrines which are not essential for salvation, it is this group of doctrines on which differing denominations are based. (Jack has also responded to this idea very admirably in his comment to you)

The Bible never condones or suggests the atrocities you cite as being carried out by Christians. A Christian would never attempt to torture any into believing anything. A Christian, by definition, is one who loves Jesus with all his or her heart, soul, mind, and body. This precludes a true Christian from committing the horrendous acts you present. However, multiple times over these atrocities, and more, have (and still are) committed by non-believers all around the world.

Now, Jack has also answered your statement about the word for ‘virgin’, so I will not address it here except to say that he is correct and you are wrong. Often you state that something you have written is a ‘fact’, as if that settles it. It does not. You are free to reject God, but to rely on the faulty logic and flimsy ‘facts’ you present as your basis for that rejection only shows your true hardheartedness and unwillingness to submit to your Creator and Lord.

I will be praying for you, Raoul. God bless you and reveal His truth to you.

Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Justin August 7, 2013 at 3:12 pm

I loved this article. Thank you for posting this!

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brenda August 29, 2013 at 8:55 am

Nice and neat! I have heard theories about how the earth was before the flood and on the flood itself. Them being that the atmosphere was much richer in oxygen, helping things to grow much larger than they do now, and the hydroplate theory of how the flood happened and wonder if you have looked into that at all? They’re very interesting subjects. Although much of science denies and discredits the existence of God , God seems to me to be science! He created all and many things we can understand how, while others remain a mystery. God is the greatest scientist who ever lived!

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Darwins Myth August 31, 2013 at 3:30 am

It’s disingenuous, how commentaries, or even pastors, will tell Christians, that what are obvious descriptions of dinosaur-like creatures mentioned in Job, are being called elephants or rhinos, or some similar creature with a tiny tail.

I was disappointed one day, when heard Dr. David Jeremiah say, that one of the creatures was a Rhino in Job, probably just because it said it was in a commentary. He’s a great preacher, but he proved to me on that day, that even my favorite preachers can be taken in by an obvious lie.

Just remember this… that the Bible gave descriptions of dinosaurs before the first dinosaur was ever dug up, in the early 1800s. That is evidence that favors the Bible as being from God.

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Jack Wellman August 31, 2013 at 1:39 pm

Great observations my friend. I am sorry that Dr. David Jeremiah believes this but this description doesn’t seem to fit a Rhino, I agree. We all have to be careful to take out of the text (exegesis) what it says and not what we think it says where we put into meaning into the text (Isogesis). I am still learning myself my friend. Thank you for your encouragement.

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Sunny October 27, 2013 at 1:10 pm

How funny that in all of the Bible study classes and worship services I’ve sat in on over the years and having a grandfather for a preacher all my life, that this very interesting discussion never came up. I’d never thought about this and this is the sort of thing that really piques my interest. I don’t think it’s a deal breaker in any way, I don’t think we need to split off into pro and anti dinosaur denominations or anything but what a different mental picture this paints for some of the earliest Bible stories. This made my day. Thank you :)

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rmharrington October 27, 2013 at 4:15 pm

Outstanding expounding as always, brother Jack. You use sound scriptural lessons, mix in a pound of history and a dash of common sense to illustrate the holes in the arguments of those who refuse to fear God. The historical fact that the word dinosaur is relatively recent to human language makes a strong case for accepting bible terms that imply the same type of creatures.

As always, your writing, reason and wisdom reflect a deep knowledge of Christ and the purposes of God. But we both know that understanding the scripture is lots like the Indian said in “Outlaw Josey Wales,”: “You got to be an Indian to know things like this.” Smiles.

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Jack Wellman October 27, 2013 at 6:51 pm

Thanks my brother…you and I truly know that God alone is worthy and gets all the glory for what have I written, what have I learned, what have I done except that it was first given to me and so all glory to God but even so, your words are always so kind to me and better than I deserve my brother. I wish I could meet you in person some day. May have to wait for the Kingdom it appears.

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Asdf December 17, 2013 at 10:06 pm

This doesn’t make sense to me. Job doesn’t sound like he was describing a dinosaur, sounds like a hippo but could be anything really. And he’s not comparing it’s tail to the size of a cedar, he says it sways like a cedar. But even if he was talking about the size, you say they’re in the 130ft-150ft range and that a lot of dinosaurs were 150ft long including the brachiosaurus which is just totally wrong. The largest dinosaur is predicted to be at most 120ft, and there not really any others that come close, and the brachiosaurus that you mentioned being 150ft is actually around 80ft. Also this whole concept that there would even be dinosaurs in the bible, you’re saying they would have been around in genesis, over 4000 years ago, but the problem is dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago. And fossils may be able to be formed in a shorter span than millions of years, but carbon dating tells us how old they are, there’s no way to change how the carbon decays. Another thing I thought just sounded silly was you said the dinosaurs in the sea would have perished because their prey would have perished, but that sounds like you’re assuming their prey lived on land. Sea creatures eat sea creatures, my point being their prey would survive a flood too.

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Samuel A. Huber December 18, 2013 at 12:04 am

Hey Jeff,
I am with you and whoever else agreed.
The Bible and science DO NOT contradict each other, the way I see it they compliment each other.
Science has proven that this earth is at least millions if not billions of years old. There are fossils and other artifacts around to prove it.

The problem lies with people not understanding that there was an Earth age before this second one we are now in. This second age we are in may only be 12,000-16,000 years old (Like some people try to say the earth is) but the earth is MUCH older.

There is SOOOO much of God’s word that just will not make any sense until you realize the fact that there was a first earth/heaven age, also a second earth/heaven age and a third and final age to come.

There are many place in the bible that support this, even in things people wouldn’t realize, like: When God says something like I am he that was, is, and is to come.

When God destroyed the first earth age at Satan’s overthrow, called the Katabole in the Greek, it was a massive event. (I saw someone in here somewhere posted that there was a flood before Noah’s. This would be the great overthrow/Katabole) They have found mammoths frozen under the tundra in Alaska with buttercups still in their mouths. Flash frozen they had been. I believe that happened at the Katabole when God destroyed that first earth age. Whatever happened to them happened so fast that they were found with flowers still in their mouths.

Happy studying.
Humbly,
Samuel A. Huber

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nevergetit December 28, 2013 at 10:54 pm

Psalm 74:13 it says, “It was you who split open the sea by your power; you broke the heads of the monster in the waters.”
This struck me, right away I thought of the flood when I read “you broke the heads of the monster in the waters” I often wondered how the flood could have killed any sea life until I thought this; a flood that massive would have done a couple of things. The salt water would have been tainted with that amount of water. The temperature of the water would have been lowered drastically seeing how high it got. Also, the sheer power of the rain, the pounding,heavy rain hitting down on any life that needed to breath air-wouldn’t have allowed it.
I get frustrated with the new agers or unbelievers who refuse to hear the truth. The flood makes so many unknown things come together like a puzzle as the outsiders are perplexed over them.

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Jack Wellman December 29, 2013 at 1:44 pm

I know what you mean…but we can remember that Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal who Jesus was but as Matthew 16:17 says “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.” Don’t get too frustrated because they have been blinded by Satan and cannot see the truth so all we can do is pray that God would reveal Who Christ is by His Spirit.

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nevergetit December 29, 2013 at 2:34 pm

Thank you! It makes me so blessed that I was given eyes that see!

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Liley T.W January 11, 2014 at 1:15 am

I went to christian schools all my life, and was always taught that the creation story was metaphorical.I believe this because at this point its impossible to deny the evidence of evolution. I found this page while I was searching for answers regarding whether animals go to heaven.I became an athiest when I was 20 because my animals are my entire life and got sick of christians treating them as inferior.They are so loyal and selfless, heaven would be hell without my dog.They have taught me so much, and saved my life in the past.Jack, could you tell me what your opinion is regarding this subject? Thanks

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Jack Wellman January 11, 2014 at 8:40 am

Thank you Liley for your question. Regarding whether pets go the heaven after they die to join those of us who have repented and trust in Christ, here is an article that may help you and I am so sorry for your hard experience. The truth is that people who don’t believe in God run the puppy mills and have been the cruelest to animals according to police records. Why do you think Christians treat animals as inferior? We certainly don’t and those in our church don’t and my wife is a animal rescuer. Here is the article thou and I hope it helps: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/do-animals-or-pets-go-to-heaven-a-biblical-analysis/

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David January 25, 2014 at 10:26 pm

I find this blog very informitive. Thanks for the truth.May God Bless you all

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Dave A March 10, 2014 at 12:42 am

Hey Pastor Jack,

I believe in God, but I’m not sure I believe the Genesis creation writings in a literal sense. Is it possible that God is the reason why not how? Or if the book of Genesis is literal then were just wrong as to when it took place? Like I said I believe in God, but I also believe in science, I don’t see why some people look at it as having tobe either or, why can’t they coexist? I believe God is truly the creator of life as a whole, the whole universe, with that said, could it be possible God created some other form of life on another planet we don’t know about? I don’t think its impossible.

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Jack Wellman March 10, 2014 at 1:26 pm

Thank you Dave for your question. Yes, life is possible on other planets but that doesn’t prove that God didn’t create it fiat or instantly does it? You can believe in evolution and be saved so it is not a salvation issue but to believe that God used time and chance to create life I believe robs God of His glory. The time sequence in Genesis with the word for day is a 24 hour period and the adding of and the day and the night were the first day shows it is a 24 hour period.

If you could ask Jesus about evolution, would He say He believed in it? You can find His answer in the scriptures. It is clearly obvious that Jesus did not believe in evolution and if you can believe in Jesus, which I do, then let His words prove it to you. Don’t believe me, believe what Jesus says.

In Matthew 19:4-6, He answers the question about divorce from the Pharisees saying, “4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh? ‘ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate.” So God did not create amoebas after the amoeba kind or single-celled creatures after the single-celled creature kinds.

Scientists have never, ever even one time be able to create life from non-life, inorganic matter. Only God can create life out of non-life and everything out of nothing. If God is not the instant creator of life then Genesis is wrong and I don’t believe it is sir. For more on this, please read these articles at:

http://jackwellman.blogspot.com/2010/05/scientists-create-new-life-form-not-so.html

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-theory-spontaneous-generation-life-louis-5957542.html?cat=4

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Thomas March 20, 2014 at 7:03 pm

Hi,

How big are lotus plants, which the dinosaur mentioned hid under?

And do we think there might be other scriptures which mention things like the T Rex, which would have been several times larger than human houses and pretty terrifying?

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Jack Wellman March 20, 2014 at 10:07 pm

Thank you sir for your question. I don’t know the exact size or what the original Hebrew word here is for that but the Diospyros lotus, also known as date-plum or Caucasian persimmon, is a tree with edible fruit and this is a tree height of 15–30 meters with sloughing of aging bark. Also the Saussurea involucrata (snow lotus), a herbaceous species from the Himalayan vicinity that is quite large to.

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Evelyn March 31, 2014 at 2:34 pm

Thank you for the article on dinosaurs. I never bought into the belief that the aforementioned behemoths were hippos. I even believe that in Job there is a description of a dragon. And if Job described such beings I believe they actually existed.

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Jack Wellman March 31, 2014 at 2:46 pm

Thank you Evelyn for your kind words. They are much appreciated.

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Ben April 16, 2014 at 11:30 am

Hello Jack.
I have read this article, I appreciate it, yet I don’t agree with everything this article says, as I am a heavy paleontology/prehistoric life/dinosaur enthusiast. Have been since I was 3 years old I am an evolutionary creationist (and I DON”T take this view to , but I’d like to address some misconceptions about those who may take a theistic evolutionary worldview.

Misconception #1 – the Genesis creation account is poetry or myth if it isn’t interpreted literally.
Misconception #2 – all evolutionists are trying to undermine God and the Bible.
Misconception #3 – Theistic Evolution involves belief in an impersonal God. (Not necessarily. Theistic Evolution can take a step further by utilizing the Divine Designer concept and demonstrate how the detailed complexity of our existence is a reflection of a caring personal God, proud of His work.)

Misconception #4 – acceptance of Theistic Evolution (in any shape or form) means denying the existence of a literal Adam and Eve, Garden of Eden, Temptation by the serpent, and the eventual Fall therefore taking away the very purpose and need for Jesus to die. I certainly don’t!

Other than the issue of creation I would say you, my brother, and I are most definitely on the same page for everything else as I do love this website and I consider it very helpful for any theological/doctrinal/Scriptural/Christian lifestyle practice question I may have. Our Lord has to be very proud of you, His humble, grace filled servant. Despite our disagreement on creation, concerning me, these things are absolutely certain.

Jesus is my Lord, I trust in His divinity
I love Him more than anything.
I try to obey His commandments every day.
I confess my sins (1 John 1:9)
I trust in His imminent return
The Bible is the truest, inerrant, inspired word and all scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16). It’s my favorite book and ultimate guide for salvation and holy living.

May God continue to bless you and whatchristianswanttoknow.com lovingly and richly!!

‘“The Lord bless you and keep you;
the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.”’
– Numbers 6:24-26

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Ben April 16, 2014 at 11:48 am

I forgot to finish saying in my previous post, I DON’T take this view to make Christianity more palatable for my unbelieving friends. I also believe that God used time,”But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day”. 2 Peter 3:8 but certainly NOT chance. What looks like random blind chance to an unbelieving scientist, we know better, and full well that God had His hand directly involved in it. Doesn’t matter if it took 6 days or 4.6 billion years. Every adaptation, every new development, All HIM! Here’s a Thought provoking quote from Charles H. Spurgeon

“But if you will look in the first chapter of Genesis, you will see there more particularly set forth that peculiar operation of power upon the universe which was put forth by the Holy Spirit; you will then discover what was his special work. In Ge 1:2, we read, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” We do not know how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God. – See more at: http://www.oldearth.org/spurgeon/spurgeon.htm#sthash.sBANiVpl.dpuf

The mere fact that the fossil record has great abundance of magnificent creatures screams the God of the Bible as the creator in my book. It gives an extra push, for inspiring worship other than the realization of my imperfect, horrid sin nature, and my inability to be holy, therefore my hope in His great mercy in His Son.

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Jack Wellman April 16, 2014 at 11:59 am

Thank you Ben for such a humble and concise comment. I think the belief in evolution is not a make or break deal for the believer so we are on the same page I feel my friend. I thank God for men of faith like you sir that show such kindless in love and attitude and I wish we had more godly men like you brother. Jesus said that you will know them by their fruits and their love for one another and I see both and so my thanks to you and I appreicate your response and please do come back again sir.

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RemnantVoice June 8, 2014 at 11:54 am

The dinosaurs lived during the Original Earth that was destroyed by God before Genesis 1:2, that is why from Genesis 1:3, was the recreation of the Earth. During the time dinosaurs lived was known as the dispensation of Angels when Lucifer and one third of the angels overtime rebelled against God, this is when Satan was thrown out of Heaven down to Earth as a serpent. (Ezekiel 28:14-19) The book of Job should have been the first book of the Bible, this explains the description of Behemoth and Leviathan to Job by God. All humanity except for Job and a few remnant people were destroyed during the first flood (2 Peter 5,6) that was way before Noah’s flood. Another clue is that the Book of Job is the only place in Scripture that Satan could still come into the presence of God. Why, because he had not been thrown out of Heaven at this point yet. 

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Jack Wellman July 26, 2014 at 6:29 pm

07/23/2014 Los Angeles, CA—A scientist was terminated from his job at a California State University after discovering soft tissue on a triceratops fossil, and then publishing his findings. Pacific Justice Institute filed suit, yesterday, with the Los Angeles County Superior Court, against the board of trustees of CSU, Northridge, citing discrimination for perceived religious views.

“Terminating an employee because of their religious views is completely inappropriate and illegal,” commented Brad Dacus, President of PJI. “But doing so in an attempt to silence scientific speech at a public university is even more alarming. This should be a wakeup call and warning to the entire world of academia,” he continued.

While at a dig at Hell Creek formation in Montana, the scientist, Mark Armitage, came upon the largest triceratops horn ever unearthed at the site. When examining the horn under a high-powered microscope back at CSUN, Armitage was fascinated to see the soft tissue. The discovery stunned members of the scientific community because it indicates that dinosaurs roamed the earth only thousands of years in the past rather than going extinct 60 million years ago.

http://www.dailypaul.com/323052/press-release-university-silences-scientist-after-dinosaur-discovery

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sharon August 10, 2014 at 9:44 am

My son read Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”–
Then he looked up at me and said “Mom, what if Satan was the “meteorite” that killed the dinosaurs?”
funny things kids ask, yes?

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Aaron November 8, 2014 at 12:09 pm

Great article, but what does the bible say about extraterrestrial life. We can’t be the only humans are earth. If they do exist I am pretty sure they do not follow any religious practice. They probably have their own. I am curious on what your thoughts will be on this since I see no article on your site about. I am also curious to how us as humans are able to create creatures from heads on paper. They would have had to existed for us to think about an idea like that. If extraterrestrial life were to reveal themselves wouldn’t that also destroy people’s faith as well.

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Jack Wellman November 9, 2014 at 8:17 am

Please forgive me Aaron for not responding sooner. I am so sorry for that. As for the Bible on extraterrestrial life, it is silent just as it is in other areas but nothing outside of the Bible can change anything in the Bible. Where God is silent in the Scriptures so must I be. No, I don’t believe it would destroy people’s faith at all because saving faith is not of human origin (Eph 2:8-9) but from God and they are secure in this faith (John 6:37, 39; John 10:28-29). As for this “how us humans are able to create creatures from heads on paper” not sure what you mean here sir.

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Br. Nick November 14, 2014 at 11:58 am

Jack,
This topic is one that I keep encountering through my youth ministry. I appreciate what you shared about the history of the term “Dinosaur”. One thing I often share with my youth is that the Bible is the inspired Word of God written by the imperfect hands of humans over the span of 800 to 1400 years. Before it was written down it was shared verbally and when we share stories verbally some no important pieces are left our or stories are presented through imagery. What is written in the Bible is based upon what people cound physically see. This would account for why there are no mention to planets, the universe, or in this case Dinosaurs. What they encountered were whales, sharks, elephants, lions, and other large animals. I also share with them that the Bible is a colleciton of histories, stories, prophecies, poetry, songs, teachings, and law. The main focus of all these is to tell us the story of God’s relationship with humankind and a powerful way that God speaks to people. What God’s wants us to gain from our reading is not the explanation of it all but an understanding why God would come as Jesus Christ, the Son of God, to die for us. The Bible contains many “truths” and it is our job to distinguish between the “Big T” Truths and the “little t” truths. The “Big T” Truths point to what we understand to be truth about our faith in God and may not be proven through human methods, but we believe it through the Holy Spirit, also known as the Canan. The “little t” truths are the things we can prove through our human methods (i.e. a king named David, Israelites living in Egypt, the development of the Christian church, and the existance of Jesus Christ). What we read in the book of Genesis is that God created all that we see. And in Genesis 1:24-25 we read “And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures of every kind: cattle and creeping things adn wild animals of every kind. God made the wild animals of the earth of every kind, and the cattle of every kind, and everything that creeps upon the ground of every kind. And God saw it was good.” This does not go into detail of what these “wild animals” are or earlier what the “swarms of living creatures” of the waters and air may be. What we know is that God created them all and it was good. These passages also do not tell of evolution or other processes to their creation just that God was behind it. We know through our human methods that evolution and galatic expansion/development does exist. Does it really matter to our faith “how” it came about or to “what” existed when? What really matters is that God saw it was good, that God was the one, with the Word, behind all that has been created and is still being created? Thank you for taking the time to share some support for and insite to this pondering.

In God’s Grace
Br. Nick
Youth and Family Minister

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Jack Wellman November 15, 2014 at 8:08 am

Nick, thank you so much sir. Godly men and biblically sound teachers like you are needed to badly because so many youth fall out of belief after they leave home so what you do is such a valuable thing for the Kingdom my brother. I can sense that you have a special calling, a God-given calling to these young men and women that shows you are contending for the truth of Gen 1:1 that God is Creator and there is no other explanation that mankind can give because men always try to suppress the truth and even though they are without excuse, their motive is to explain God away so that they won’t have to be accountable for their sins. Well done friend. I thank God for you Brother Nick.

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Danny December 3, 2014 at 10:02 am

Hi Jack

Thank you for the article and sharing your thoughts sir. I have heard of or know some creationists such as Henry Morris and his son John Morris who believe the behemoth and leviathan are referring to dinosaurs, but respectfully I disagree with your article suggesting that dinosaurs and man might have lived together.
My views are generally inline with contemporary science. I hold that a 4.6 billion year old earth & 13.8 billion year old universe is compatible with the inspiration of Genesis. As far as I personally know, I don’t know any genetic or paleontological evidence of a dinosaur that’s less than 10,000 years old. Only billions. If you know of any scientific evidence to support the young earth viewpoint Jack, I would be happy to hear it.
Nevertheless I appreciate the article Jack and to hear your thoughts on this issue. Thanks again.

God Bless you in everything,
Danny

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Jack Wellman December 3, 2014 at 11:47 am

Thank you Danny. I am not a young earth creationist nor an old earth creationist but simply a creationist. The Bible is not a book about the heavens precisely; it is precisely a book on how to get to heaven. The Bible was never intended to tell us specifically how God created the earth and the heavens nor does He lay down a specific time sequence in years for the age of the earth and the universe. If God had wanted us to know, He would have revealed the age of the earth and the universe in the Bible but He chose not to. If we try and read the Bible like a science textbook we will miss the context of God’s plan of redemption for a fallen mankind and that is the specific purpose of the book, not how everything was done in a linear, time-line fashion. If we try to read it like that, we miss the point.

The late Dr. J. Vernon McGee once said that “the Bible is a Him book…it is all about Him (Jesus Christ).” In Genesis 1:1 the words for “without form and void” are from the Hebrew words “tohuw” which means “formless, confusion, and emptiness, wilderness, wasteland” while the word “void” is Hebrew for “bohuw” which means “emptiness, void, waste” so we can read the first line of Genesis 1:2 in the Hebrew as “The earth was formless, empty, and like a great wilderness or wasteland.”

Some Bible scholars believe that the earth may have been first inhabited by Satan and his demons after being cast out of heaven for his rebellion in an attempt to take over the throne of God and be in place of God (Isaiah 14:12; Ezk 28:12-18) and that after the “beginning” (Gen 1:1) Satan brought the earth into ruin and waste and perhaps may explain the extinction of the vast majority of the dinosaurs. Here was the Spirit of God moving over this “darkness” (Gen 1:1) which is Hebrew for “obscurity or secret place” meaning that the surface of the earth was obscured by darkness because it was a wasteland and that it was formless as in comparison to what it is like now. Was this a renewing of the creation that God had originally created (Gen 1:1) and this is what is involved in Genesis 1:3-9?

We can only speculate on this because, again, there are no witnesses alive to ask about this. Someday we can ask Jesus Himself but for now, we have to be silent on the age of the earth and the universe because we simply cannot be dogmatic or certain because the Bible doesn’t give us a full account of the years or the age of the earth and the universe. Since we know that God created the universe in an already mature state…that is the trees were bearing fruit, Adam and Eve were adults as they had children, why wouldn’t God create an earth that to scientists appeared to be old? I see no reason why God would not create an already mature earth that might appear to be old…maybe to confound the wise of the earth but I simply don’t know and the Bible doesn’t say so I cannot say. Here is more that I wrote about how old the earth is at this link:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/05/15/how-old-is-the-earth-according-to-the-bible-does-it-say/ Thank you David.

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Pastor John D'Orazio December 20, 2014 at 12:24 pm

Hi. I was enjoying reading this site and I didn’t see an explanation in this area. Namely that should we believe that the earth is only 6000 years old or as science tells us, that it is billions of years old? I’ve never found a believable answer to that question. :)

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Jack Wellman December 20, 2014 at 8:16 pm

Thank you Pastor…great point. The question you asked for was an entirely different subject but I do think I should have addressed this issue and did in another article that I wrote at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/05/15/how-old-is-the-earth-according-to-the-bible-does-it-say/ Thank you pastor for your inquiry and may God richly bless you sir.

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Jack Wellman May 24, 2012 at 9:57 pm

Thank you Stephen. I am so glad you had a back up of this post. I understand that you are not trying to offend anyone. Thank you for that and I appreciate your honesty in this and respect your right to tell others your beliefs here. I am glad we got it straightened out Stephen.

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Jack Wellman June 3, 2012 at 7:36 pm

Tejas, let me say that the universe could not be eternal since that would mean that an infinite amount of time had to be crossed to get to the present. You simply cannot cross an infinite amount of time (otherwise it wouldn’t be infinite). Therefore, the universe had a beginning. Something cannot bring itself into existence. Therefore, something brought it into existence. If you lack belief in God, then your belief is a faith-based belief and one that you can not prove anymore that the eternally existing universe.

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Tejas June 3, 2012 at 11:17 pm

Thank you Jack for your response. Let me first say that I do not lack a belief in God, but that does not mean I believe in one either (I do personally have a hard time believing in an omnipotent God at least). As for the universe being eternal, there are theories out there (M Theory) that theorize that there are an infinite cycle of Big Bangs (every trillion trillion years or so) and that there is no beginning or end. This theory still needs a lot more work so I cannot say for sure whether our universe is eternal or not, but hopefully in a few years we will know. As for faith-based beliefs, I just have a hard time understanding it. Without scientific proof, how can you say for sure one way or another (this goes for Christians as well as Atheists)?

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Roch Sao December 3, 2014 at 12:57 pm

That was a terrific explanation…

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Jack Wellman June 4, 2012 at 3:58 pm

I want to say, thank you so much Tejas. I appreciate your patience with me sir. To me the underlying theme is the Law of Causality. This principle of causation is so fundamental that if I said that the chair you are sitting on, which must have had a beginning, just popped into existence without any cause, you might justifiably think I need a psychiatric assessment and you’d be right! LOL

The cause of the universe must have been non-material because if the cause was material – natural, it would be subject to the same laws of decay as the universe. That means it would have to have had a beginning itself and you have the same problem as cycles of births and deaths of universes. So the cause of the universe’s beginning must have been super-natural, i.e. non-material or spirit—a cause outside of space-matter-time. Such a cause would not be subject to the law of decay and so would not have a beginning. That is, the cause had to be eternal spirit.

Furthermore, the cause of the universe had to be incredibly powerful; the sheer size and energy seen in the universe together speak of that power; there had to be a sufficient cause. Do you see my point sir

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Tejas June 5, 2012 at 12:52 pm

Hi yes I do understand and see your point and you do have a very valid point. However we have only begun to fully understand the natural world and all that is in it. We could say that an all knowing supernatural being, God, created everything and as far as we know this could be true. But we are on a quest of knowledge and if everyone accepts this possible answer, than the quest stops.

I also want to bring up an analogy.. ants living in a glass ant farm. As far as they know their whole world is what they see and experience in their ant farms and to them we could be Gods. We are not all knowing or all powerful but to them we might appear that way. My point is just because we do not understand something, does not necessarily make it supernatural.

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Robert June 5, 2012 at 3:13 pm

[My apologies. Due to the lack of my technical expertise, I posted this accidentally way up in the thread. I am reposting it here…where I attempted to place it in the first place…duh]

Good afternoon Tejas,
In your previous comment, you wrote: “We could say that an all knowing supernatural being, God, created everything and as far as we know this could be true. But we are on a quest of knowledge and if everyone accepts this possible answer, than the quest stops.”

Let’s apply this logic to any search. If we are searching, and we find what we are looking for, isn’t it absurd to deny its existence and keep looking? We would never come to the truth of anything. However, Jack has given some very solid logical defenses of the biblical position. If we agree that truth exists, we would also have to agree that it would be foolish to ignore that truth on the basis of flawed human reasoning or pride. Humankind will never know everything. God has given us all the knowledge, evidence, and facts to find Him. Only willfull resistance keeps us from seeing the truth.
God bless you Tejas.
Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Jack Wellman June 5, 2012 at 3:16 pm

Thank you Tejas. You are right that “just because we do not understand something, does not necessarily make it supernatural” but neither does it prevent it from being possible either since we do not know all that there is to know. This is why being an atheist is impossible for the atheist to say dogmatically that there is no God is to know all things and all beings in all the venues of the entire expanse of the universe. To be a God to the ants is to be the ants creator and so we may look like ants to them, yet to the naked eye the earth appears flat, but we know better of course.

Who Made God? is repeatedly asked by Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion.  Who made God have been the atheist’s most frequent philosophical weapon and objection to the existence of God.

Professor Edgar Andrews addresses the argument that “man made God” in his book “Who Made God?“ and is actually the polar opposite of what Christians assert to be true.  But then the professor asks, “if we made God, who made us? (p. 17)”  Scott Adams said that evolution isn’t a cause of anything, it is categorizing, and observation, and it doesn’t deal with the cause of who made us.  Then you could say, “if evolution made us, who made evolution” (p. 18)? The atheist might answer, “everything around us”, to which we could ask, who made everything around us?  This is like the circular, never ending cycle, which is what is called Tautology.  Whatever A makes, say, B, then A must be greater (p. 19).  Professor Andrews uses the example that Beethoven was greater than his composition. This is a necessary, logical inference.

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Tejas June 6, 2012 at 3:44 pm

Hi Robert – The difference here is that I do not believe we have found all truths. In fact we have just begun to explore our universe all its hidden secrets. The search for knowledge is what makes us human and stopping that search just because we think we found one possible answer, in my opinion, is absurd. If we had stopped this search 2000 years ago, where would we be today?

Jack – I do agree with you that it takes a leap of faith for an atheist to make such a claim, but it requires a similar leap of faith to make the opposite claim as well. I believe we both have made good points in this argument. We can at least agree, I hope, that mankind should continue our search for answers and one day as a society we will have found an answer to not just the why (as Christianity might explain to some) but the specifics of how (which the bible does not really explain).

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lovejesus November 4, 2012 at 4:30 am

Mary maybe the grandson knows, she in a better place like Heaven.

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Tejas June 6, 2012 at 3:48 pm

Sorry my last comment was a duplicate.. i did not realize it posted somewhere else :)

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lovejesus November 7, 2012 at 2:41 am

Jesus gives comfort , to all that seek him!

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koolkoala November 25, 2012 at 7:55 pm

King of hearts is my favorite card in the deck because Jesus pushed his scrutinies into the heart of a man. The intentions of philosophy and the Hebrew code focus on actions only. In addition to moral principles, the Christian doctrines teaches a purity of heart and holiness of life which constitutes its chief glory. The strongest civil code is impotent against malicious behavior unless the heart itself can be restrained.

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John December 10, 2012 at 12:41 pm

The Facts of Life
Those who hail evolution as a “fact” are either ignorant of the facts, or lying about them. The fact is that scientists have only been able to create 13 of the 20 amino acids that make up protein molecules. And even these (almost always) consist of 50/50 mixtures of L-type (left-handed) and D-type (right-handed) amino acids. This is about as far from making a living organism as a piece of silver is from a computer (with monitor, printer, and electricity) running Windows XP. For even the most “simple,” self-replicating, bacterium contains many thousands of protein molecules, of 600 different types, that consist of left-handed (only) amino acids — each of which is connected in just the right order, like words and sentences on a page, while the most basic protein molecule (only 8 amino acids long) has never been observed to form naturally.

The most basic self-replicating bacterium is called Mycoplasma genitalia. It consists of at least 40,000 protein molecules of 600 different types, has 482 genes, and can’t survive on its own but requires the aid of a more complex “host” organism.
To suppose that one of these extremely complex creatures came into being by itself (over Billions of years) is an unsubstantiated speculation of the highest order and is NOT based on empirical (i.e. observed) science, but rather upon a blind faith in the power of (unintelligent) matter to somehow organize itself by time and chance, while overcoming the destructive forces of nature such as heat, oxidation, hydrolysis, and numerous toxic chemicals.
For example, is there any reason to expect that a “Creative” bolt of Lightning, or “Ocean Bubble” could ever produce a half-way-formed “pre-mycoplasmic” organic blob of cells, that would — in 100 Billion years — make itself more and more complex, to the point where it could maintain and Reproduce itself ? Or would such a (hypothetical) halfway formed blob of chemicals simply decay and degrade via natural processes?
Like it or not, the facts of science declare that such an imaginary “pre-creature” would not complete this process on its own, but would instead merely decay back into the unintelligent matter from which it came. In other words, a belief in evolution is based much more on (blind) faith, as opposed to scientifically observed facts; however this is NOT what our children are being taught in public schools, but rather instead are being brainwashed to believe something that (most certainly) can’t be true:
http://www.earthage.org/intro/A%20Closer%20Look%20at%20the%20Age%20of%20the%20Earth.htm

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Raoul Duke January 3, 2013 at 11:50 pm

John – I stumbled across your post here and found it really interesting but also a bit confusing. I hope you (or Jack perhaps) can help clarify what you are saying for me.

First – you seem adamant that evolution is not only not true – but is dangerously false and you seem concerned that it is even being taught in public schools. I happen to know a bit about evolution and have studied it in some detail, especially in light of conflicts with various religious traditions like christianity. I have a hard time reconciling what you are saying with what christian scholars who are schooled in science and in christianity say – which is very different from how you describe it.

Are you familiar with a man named Pierre Teilhard de Chardin? He was a Jesuit priest who was also a highly trained geologist and paleontologist. He is quite well known for several things – but especially for his book “Phenomenon of Man” where is says “Evolution is a light which illuminates all facts, a curve that all lines must follow.”

It always makes me nervous when I find myself at odds with men of god who are much better educated than I am in the area of the intersection of religion and science. This priest advocated reconciling what is in the bible with modern science. And that seems to be what Tejas is saying (or asking for) in his comments above. You have to be very careful arguing that small issues or discrepancies in the science of evolution mean we should disregard the entire theory. For if we were to apply that same reasoning to the holy bible itself we would have to disregard it as well because there are small issues and discrepancies contained in it.

Further, another quite well-known saying is that “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” and this is quite powerful. Think about it – if you remove evolution as the driving force behind the diversity of life on this planet – there is nothing left to replace it. The “god created it” argument from the book of Genesis is problematic for a number of reasons. I can no longer believe that god separately created the millions of species on earth. I know much of gods work and plan is mysterious – but why would be make the lowly beetle and insects (disease carrying insects at that), bacteria, and viruses that continue to adapt and change in response to our efforts to fight them with antibiotics. Further, it is now documented beyond reasonable dispute that although there are millions of different species living on the planet today – that number is a mere fraction of all of the species that have lived and then gone extinct over the years. Do we really want to defend against the argument that the creatures that god designed were so poorly designed that the majority of them can’t even survive on this planet?

This troubles me and I assume it troubles Jack and you as well. right?

And persoanlly, I am deeply troubled by the many, many examples of poor design in nature. I won’t try to detail those here but you have to admit that when someone dies from a burst appendix, which is an part of an organ that we do not even need or use, then the design of the human digestive system could have been improved. Or the fact that the female birth canal passes through the perlvis – creating a situation that regularly endangers the life of the baby, the mother, and sometimes both. Or how about the fact that humans can’t even synthesize vitamin C – something that we absolutely need to survive. I am sure you know of the example of the bizarre and dangerous route that the laryngeal nerve takes inside the human body (going all over the place just to come back to connect up near where it started) and the health risks associated with such a strange design.

So I think the saying is that we have to be careful that in our zeal to defend Genesis we don’t end up shooting ourselves in the foot by trying to defend design issues that can’t be well defended at all. IN other words – the same class of criticism that we tend to throw at evolution results in conclusions we do not want to face when turned back on our own arguments in defense of our bible.

Finally, and just in passing – you say that ” the most basic self-replicating bacterium is called Mycoplasma genitalia.” I think you meant to refer to Mycoplasma as an organism with the smallest genome, right? For as I am sure you are aware – Mycoplasma genitalia is not the smallest self-replicating bacterium. that distinction goes to Candidatus Carsonella ruddii.

Would love to have your thoughts on this – and Jack – of course I need your thoughts and advice on such a difficult subject.

thanks

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Jack Wellman January 4, 2013 at 9:48 am

Raoul, this is written with such intelligence to be beyond dispute. Thank you for writing with such clarity and logic. You are an apologist to an extraordinary degree. Please let me help you, if I can, in what way I can in the “difficult subject” you were asking about sir. May I be of any service to you? Let me know. Thank you so much for your outstanding response here.

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Jack Wellman January 4, 2013 at 9:49 am

Hello Raoul, this is written with such intelligence to be beyond dispute. Thank you for writing with such clarity and logic. You are an apologist to an extraordinary degree. Please let me help you, if I can, in what way I can in the “difficult subject” you were asking about sir. May I be of any service to you? Let me know. Thank you so much for your outstanding response here.

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John January 4, 2013 at 4:58 pm

Hello Raoul,
Thanks for your comments. Maybe this will help.

As you know Creation is based on the belief that an intelligent Creator/God purposely designed and put the universe together.
Evolution is based (and being taught) on the belief that life formed from non-living materials and that random chance and millions/billions of highly favorable and innovative mistakes or “mutations” were able to complement and build upon one another to create all the life forms which exist today, and to your point all the ones that have become extinct. Think about what this really means. No one person here on earth has ever started/created life from non-living materials. We know all the ingredients and can include every element need. We can create any environment state that we can imagine, add heat, electricity, water….whatever you like, but no one is even remotely come close to starting life. Ask yourself why is this? Do you believe the earth did this on its own. Do you believe life came to earth on an asteroid or comet? Sure we know LIFE evolves but what we are being taught is that non-living materials with zero intelligents, has inexplicably/ miraculously started “LIFE”

Only one of these beliefs can be true. Either we evolved from non-living materials, or life was designed and created. If it turns out we were Created, then this means that there are absolutes, and that everything is NOT relative, because the fact that we have been Created (by a Creator) is (or would be), in itself, an absolute truth: whether or not the Creator created us directly from “the dust of the ground” as we are told in Genesis (2:7, 9, 19), or indirectly by selecting and establishing the Laws of nature, and organizing the first self-replicating and organisms (pick one), and letting them “take their course.”
Neither the Creationist nor Evolutionist views are based solely on science, for they both make assumptions about the past that cannot be verified by any present methods or experiments and are therefore are believed by FAITH not science. Therefore, since no one can demonstrate how it happened, or even how the first living cell (somehow and against all odds) got itself started, stayed alive and learned to replicate, you are left to decide. What is great is that you are free to make up your own mind regarding who is right and how it occurred, and we should all be free to speak our minds in any public forum without fear of offending those who have very likely been miss lead by the Mass Media to believe something that (based on the “odds” alone) cannot be true.

Also, if you believe that God directed the process of CREATION, or that He started the first living cells and the Laws that allow for life to exist, and put them in a suitable environment, and then allowed “mother nature” to “take over” and Create all of the various and wondrous forms of life that we see around us — over millions of years, then you believe in Slow Creation: not evolution.
Furthermore, if it turns out that God did, in fact, spontaneously Create every different life-form that ever existed on this planet within any matter of days or period of time, then many other truths would result from this one absolute truth: including moral truths of right and wrong. In other words, if there is a Creator / God, (which there is) then He can/will establish and declare what is right and wrong, and hold us accountable for opposing or ignoring His direction or His plans or for violating His moral laws of right and wrong that are said to be “written in their hearts.” Romans 2:15.

Note:
Mycoplasma genitalium was chosen as the model for the Minimal Genome Project, as it was the species with the smallest number of genes known at that time with the ability to replicate itself. Mycoplasma genitalium was used as an example because we know the entire protein content of a cell. The point was to explain how absolutely complex even the most basic form of life is not that Mycoplasma genitalium was the most basic life form.

Hope that helps. Now go to church. : )

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-do-christians-believe-about-dinosaurs/#ixzz2H3ARgW6i

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Raoul Duke January 4, 2013 at 11:28 pm

John, there is no need to keep repeating what you have said in previous posts and no need to copy or paraphrase from other sources – such as the website on creationism that you linked to at the end of your earlier post. I read that post and I looked at that website – repeating yourself therefore is just counterproductive.

Your are dangerously close to mixing apples and oranges regarding the difference between the creation of life and the evolution of life once created. Those are two very different things.

Evolution has nothing to say about and nothing to do with how life was first started on this planet. Nobody knows how that first happened. But because nobody knows the answer to that you have a tendency to immediately jump into the hole/gap that you think is there and then assert that god lives there.

Let me warn you about doing that. Christians have been doing that for a VERY long time and inevitably they regret it. It is the “God of the Gaps” phenomenon – where whatever modern science cannot explain then THAT is where you will find god. The obvious problem with that is that – so far at least – eventually science does come up with an explanation for that “gap” and then god vanishes and is inserted by believers into the next gap that science has yet to fill. Think about where god used to dwell: in the clouds, just above the firmament, looking down on us from the clouds and guiding – or ata least knowing- every move we make – every breath we take.

Next time you are in a plane at 30,000 feet look out the window and let me know if you see god or if you see heaven. Ok, we both know they are not there – but 2,000 years ago they were. I could cite hundreds of examples of the same thing.

The incredible diversity and adaptiveness of life on earth used to constitute obvious and self-evident evidence of god’s hand in creation. Charles Darwin was a devoutly religious man who had studied to become a priest. He had no desire or intention to cause the kinds of problems that his theory of evolution has created. In addition, he was just one of many, many, many of the “fathers” of various branches of modern science that have filled on those gaps that god used to inhabit but are not filled by simple scientific facts. None of them set out to eliminate or destroy god – just the contrary was happening – they were looking for further evidence to support god in god’s creation. Little did they suspect that they result of their work in support of god’s creation would be a radical reinterpretation of what is meant by the term.

But I ramble on too much. Here is the essential point and to make it I want to circle back to your comments in the last post. You end your first post by saying that our schools are teaching something that “can’t be true” (referring to evolution). In your second post you seem to be saying that evolution is true – but life originated with god. Perhaps I am reading you incorrectly and it does not really matter what or which you believe. But the problem pertains to the bible itself and the ramifications of god jumping in and out of the gaps in our knowledge over time.

I have seen a number of folks like you argue for what you call “slow creation” (or should I say what the author of the web page you cited calls “slow creation”). That god created life and he created the laws of nature and so god created evolution. It is all part of gods plan. Therefore the god of the bible is real and the words of the bible are true – except to the extent that they are not consistent with evolution. See the problem? If the bible is wrong, then the bible is wrong – so be it. Do you need the bible to believe in Jesus? That is for you to decide. But you cannot have it both ways and agree that the bible is wrong regarding the creation of life but everything else is still right and so its ok. You can’t do it that way John. That is supposed to be the infallible word of an all-knowing, all-powerful god containing his essential message to his creation. If any part of it is wrong, then none of it is “reliable” and none of it can be infallible – as you have just shown haw fallible it actually is.

Once you (anyone) start deciding that parts of it are real/literal and parts of it are not real/metaphorical (except for the most clear and obvious examples) then you are really just making up your own religion. This is done anyway by any number of christian sects and is called “cafeteria christianity” where you accept what you like and ignore what you do not like and are good to go. That happens ALL THE TIME by well-meaning people who proudly call themselves “christian” and they do not even realize that whatever it is they are doing/believe in – it is NOT christianity.

I can tell you are a man keenly focused on morality – its importance and its grounding in the bible. I suspect you defend literal bible reading (and hence creationism) so strongly because you absolutely fear the consequences to our world and our lives if the bible is not true.

That is admirable and understandable. But you can make a darn good argument for morality – its relevance and its critical importance to man and mankind – without requiring that the bible be literally true or complete garbage. There are other interpretations.

Now a lot of people believe that if the bible is not true then the world goes to hell in a handbasket becuase we would have lost our moral foundation and opened ourselves up to an “anything goes” world.

But the good news is that is just not true. Mankind seemed to do just fine before the bible was written down and collected into a book. Remember – for the new testament – this did not happen until more than 300 years after Jesus died. Mankind seemed to do ok before that time. Now the old testament books were still out there for sure – but they were not collected into any “official” version and certainly were not contained in a single “book.”Or think about the cultures – the vast numbers of people living on this planet that were unknown to the primitive and illiterate inhabitants of the middle east of the greek or roman worlds?

Think of the vast, great civilizations in Egypt, China, meso-america – where none of them had even heard of the fall of man in the garden of eden or the 10 commandments. Yet those civilizations were not immoral nor did they have an “anything goes” approach to each other or to life.

Isn’t that evidence that although the bible does contain some moral teachings, it is certainly not the basis of morality in mankind.

Think about it John – there is a way to live in the modern world, accept the best and latest findings of the sciences, and still hold on to your faith, your morality, and the life you want to live.

Maybe that is the modern gospel (good news)?

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Robert January 6, 2013 at 1:20 pm

Raoul,
You spend an inordinate amount of time and energy casting doubt on the veracity of the Bible. The arguments you use have been soundly demolished by many theologians, some of them also faithful scientists. You repeatedly indicate your belief (and the belief of those you quote) that the Bible should be interpreted by science, rather than the other way around. Does science concede that resurrection is possible? If not, then (according to your worldview) we must say that Jesus could not have been resurrected. Correct?
Your ideas and arguments are not new, nor are they convincing to anyone who will do a bit of research. Christianity is not a blind faith that can be blown away by scientific theory (proven or unproven); believers have a historic faith with facts that can be verified as much or more than any scientific theory that would challenge it. Science has not, nor will it ever, deliver the slam-dunk rebuttal of which you think it capable.
God is reaching out to you also, Raoul. Instead of responding in faith, you spend your time in foolishness (Psalm 14:1, 53:1) not only rejecting Him, but attempting to convince others to reject Him. All the warnings you issued to John (in your comments) pale in comparison with the warning Jesus issued for those who would lead others into rebellion against God: Jesus warned, “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin” (Luke 17:2 ESV). I pray you will see the truth, Raoul.
Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Jack Wellman January 7, 2013 at 12:33 pm

Rauol, I think we are done here. I see that you said, “If you are at 30,000 feet see if you see god (sic)” God is Spirit (John 3) and you can not see Spirit anymore than you can the wind. You can see the effects of the wind just as you can the effects of God (Psalm 19:1) “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.”

Romans 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

May God open your eyes and take care and we hope you can find what you are looking for.

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CC February 6, 2013 at 10:04 pm

I just read your comments here and forgive me, but are you a christian?I doubt anyone here is advocating biblical fundamentalism here since the bible is made up of moral laws, societal laws ritual laws etc. So that kind of biblical fundamentalism though from good place mainly stems from Sunday school (or my initial understanding of The Word certainly did). So forgive me, but you seem to be hinting at a form of scientism or belief without The Word. And ‘Cafteria christians’ as you call them, often end up becoming atheists or agnostics or what ever they call themselves these days because they base their belief not on The Word; but on a form of post modern liberalism that removes Christ, and this postmodern interpretation often flies in the face of the tradition Christ was raised in. Christ didn’t come to abolish the moral laws but to affirm them and to introduce to the word of God that relied much more on our hearts than our backgrounds. Your earlier discussions were sound but to use the claim that ‘Mankind seemed to do just fine before the bible was written down and collected into a book. Remember – for the new testament – this did not happen until more than 300 years after Jesus died. Mankind seemed to do ok before that time,’ is missing the point of why we believe in Christ. Remember though The Bible wasn’t written then, The Word was very much transmitted via Christ’s apostles and disciples in a form of Jewish Rabbinic Oral tradition and btw that number you gave there, is an exaggeration, at most it was 20-30 years after so no need to add another zero. Futhermore, the OT or Torah was around amongst the Jews (some were even written on ancient papyrus) long before the manifestation of the Logos or Christ arrived to usher in the New Testament so I’m not sure your point…
Christ came to save us. We are introduced to the good news or the gospels and it’s a cause for celebration; a celebration that our life need to not be futility or the profane but based on Sacredness and belief in Christ predicated on Love and not the bloodlust that characterized the era and manifests itself in different forms today so again, not sure your point. Your rhetorical hyperbole however isn’t lost on me. A belief in the Bible isn’t just predicated on ‘cafteria’ reading but historical, philosophical, cultural and even allegorical, symbolic, revelations and numerological positions that have being mainly lost to modern audiences particularly the significance of the numbers amongst the ancient Jews in general.

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Robert January 6, 2013 at 1:26 pm

My brother Jack,
Did I misread Raoul’s comment? It seems that he is saying that, instead of the Bible being the standard which judges all others, he believes that it is science that should judge everything, even God’s Word (read his other comments also). I may be in the Twilight Zone, but that’s what I understood from his comments. I’m sure you don’t endorse that kind of worldview. Am I losing it?
Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Raoul Duke January 6, 2013 at 2:16 pm

Yes you did misread – badly. Instead of considering and responding to what I actually said – you have apparently decided to respond to something else. For example: please go ahead and paste in the quote from my post where I say that science should “judge everything.”

I will remind you that just saying something does not make it so. At least in the real world. I did not cast doubt on the veracity of the bible – I pointed out a fatal flaw in your argument regarding “slow evolution” and the bible story of creation in Genesis and that you can’t have it both ways. O guess you are insisting on having it both ways. Nothing I can do about that.

Saying that the “arguments” have been “soundly demolished” without indicating what “arguments” you are talking about or showing how/where they have been “demolished” may work in your world – but not in the real world. Are we supposed to just take your word for this? Why would anyone do such a thing?

If you just want to ignore what is actually said and then engage in ad hominem attacks we should stop now. It is not fair to Jack or to his faithful readers to subject them to that kind of nonsense.

It is curious and fascinating to me that you are running away from what I suggested was a way to keep faith in god and the bible while at the same time understanding and accepting scientific findings and progress. Not sure why that scares you – but whether you like it or not it is where christianity is evolving anyway. (And I use that word intentionally although I suspect it will enrage you as well. The truth is that the bible was never intended to be read literally – that is a creation of Darby in the late 1800’s. Read literally, it is brutal, arbitrary, and derivative. It contains nothing new regarding spirituality – that had not previously existed for generations. Read as metaphor and as poetry and as a spiritual document it is a thing of unsurpassed wonder and beauty. It is time, don’t you think , that we return to a way of reading and using that great book as it was intended by those who wrote it?)

Have a nice day. I had hoped we could engage productively and am saddened that you have no interest in that.

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Robert January 6, 2013 at 6:00 pm

Raoul,
I am quite calm and unenraged, thank you very much. I’ve seen all your arguments before. Thanks for responding, by the way.

Now you say you are not saying that science should determine biblical truth and you ask me to cut and paste examples where you have suggested this. How about these two quotes from you which show your thinking on the matter: First of all you quote Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who (according to you) says, “Evolution is a light which illuminates all facts, a curve that all lines must follow.” Indicating the supremacy of evolutionary science over, I guess, everything else. Then, you say, “Further, another quite well-known saying is that “nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” and this is quite powerful. Think about it – if you remove evolution as the driving force behind the diversity of life on this planet – there is nothing left to replace it.” You are clearly saying that evolution created the diversity of life, not God. Now, as you are quite fond of saying, you can’t have it both ways. Either the biblical record is correct, or evolutionary science is correct. I have studied the suppose ‘evidence’ for evolution long enough to know that it has too many holes in it to be taken as a proven theory.

Let me straighten out a few things you obviously have misconstrued: I am not scared of your rhetoric, nor am I running away from your comments, far from it, I’m standing firm on the Word of God as truth which all other supposed facts must agree with. You accuse me of ad hominem attacks while you consistently misrepresent me and my points. But, as you said “Nothing I can do about that”.

The world does not need an ‘evolved’ Christianity. It needs to put its faith in the historical Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins. That’s what I wish to share with anyone and everyone. That truth is found within the pages of Scripture, Scripture that you attempt to cast doubt upon. Where do you do this, you ask? You wrote, “Isn’t that evidence that although the bible does contain some moral teachings, it is certainly not the basis of morality in mankind.” and “See the problem? If the bible is wrong, then the bible is wrong – so be it. Do you need the bible to believe in Jesus?” Just two examples, so don’t pretend innocence. You do not hold to the innerancy or infallibility of God’s Word, this means (as you put it in one of YOUR comments) that we think we can pick and choose which parts to believe and which to reject.

The only thing you’ve done in your comments is to belittle the biblical record. I won’t stand by and allow that to go on without a response (I Peter 3:15). By the way, Jack knows my heart (and my motivation) quite well.
Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Jack Wellman January 7, 2013 at 12:35 pm

Robert, I meant to answer John instead of Rauol. My bad. I see that Rauol only wants to argue a moot point. I would suggest that Rauol finds a forum where there are atheists so that he can vent his frustration of God. Some day, sadly when it is too late, he will see God but not as Savior but as Judge. Best to you Rauol and goodbye. I think we have hit a wall. We will never convince you anymore than you will convince us that there is no God.

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Robert January 7, 2013 at 1:42 pm

Brother, I knew there was a good reason (although you might get those glasses checked…ha…ha). God bless you, brother.
Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Raoul Duke January 8, 2013 at 12:02 am

I did not say there “is no God.” I did not say I was an atheist. I did not denigrate, criticize, or make ad hominem attacks (all of which were done to me).

Jack – your comment to me in this same thread was:

“Hello Raoul, this is written with such intelligence to be beyond dispute. Thank you for writing with such clarity and logic. You are an apologist to an extraordinary degree. Please let me help you, if I can…”

I hope you have fun laughing at my expense – but it is such an unchristian thing to do that it literally shocks the conscience. I guess there is no tolerance here for anyone or any opinion that might differ from whatever your deem acceptable.

Robert is just fine – spouting nonsense (literally) but I speak of the bible as a book of “unsurpassed wonder and beauty” and you (figuratively) throw me out the door. It is really surprising to find such intolerance on a christian site. Reminds me of how the Pharisee’s treated Jesus when he came along saying things they did not want to hear. You know there are over 30,000 recognized christian sects. Few of them read the bible as if each and every word is literally true. So your view is a distinctly minority view and one that has been popular for less than 200 years.

And just for the record – Robert – you espouse a version of Christianity that has been around for less than 200 years. The view you bring – and most other sects is miles apart from what the original version was….in fact there was disagreement from day 1 about what it all meant. Do you think Paul and James agreed on what “christianity” was? Of course not – and that disagreement is documented in the bible itself. Do you know that if you were to profess your “current” views in the 12th century that you would have been burned at the stake as a heretic. Robert – if that is not evidence of a religion changing (yes “evolving”) over time I do not know what is. But you will go on pretending that what you are doing is consistent with the original version. Whatever you need to do to make yourself feel good.

Thanks guys – although I do not understand or appreciate being ridiculed and shunned because you do not tolerate words or views that do not agree with your own – historically it was not an uncommon practice. You are the guys who a few hundred years ago would have wanted someone like me put to death because of what I said or wrote. The irony is just too much. Today your only consolation is the punishment your god will inflict on me. You know – that compassionate, forgiving and loving god you always talk about. That guy can’t wait to get his hands on me to inflict punishment. Strange way to apply the golden rule don’t you think?

Have a nice day.

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Robert January 8, 2013 at 9:13 am

Raoul,
No one here is laughing at you, or about this. No one here wants to see you burn in hell, either. Quite the contrary, we are concerned that your view of the Bible is too shallow. No one has ridiculed you either. We are simply championing the Word of God. And about your charge of intolerance; I am guilty of being intolerant of those worldviews which seek to minimize God or His Word. We are not free to construct our own religion by picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we deem authentic.

You say never claimed to be an atheist, but you never claimed to be a Christian either. One must look at your worldview to figure out just what you believe. You appear to believe that either science (man’s opinion of what is factual) or church history (the record of man’s views, not God’s) should have final say over the Bible. [By the way, you seem to have a very one-sided view of church history. I don’t know who you’ve been listening to, but you should check out some other sources] Your view of the Bible seems to be that you, or I, should be able to make it say whatever we want it to say. Why even use the Bible then? It would make just as much sense to throw it away and make up my own rules to live by. My point is; either the Bible is authoritative or it is not. Our eternal destiny hinges on our view of the Bible; do we accept it as truth or is it something we see as a book of beautiful sayings and moral suggestions?

There are many books of “unsurpassed wonder and beauty” that are not the Word of God. The Bible is concerned with much more than mere rules and regulations; it presents mankind’s lost condition and God’s plan of salvation to deal with our condition.

Your also attempt to present yourself as some sort of victim of Christian intolerance here. Let me remind you that you came onto this site with your ideas. Where your ideas do not line up with the Bible, you can expect to be challenged. However, whenever you are challenged about your views, you claim ‘intolerance’ and say that you are being ‘ridiculed’ and ‘shunned’ etc. In all this, you have never answered any question that I’ve posed to you. You simply come back with how intolerant we are.

You have actually never said what you believe about Jesus’ deity, how to be saved, or the lordship of Christ; you simply came onto the site with your own ideas and expected no one to challenge them.

Let’s cut to the chase here. The overall viewpoint of this website is that the Bible is God’s Word. It is God’s Word to humanity and is the written record of God’s dealings with His people. If you do not believe that, then we are at an impasse.

So, Raoul, what do you believe? About the Bible? About Jesus? About salvation?

Yours in Christ,
Robert

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Jack Wellman July 24, 2013 at 6:58 pm

As always Robert, your such a grace-filled man of God. Unfortunately, we had to remove Raoul because he was attacking a person rather than addressing the issue and so Raoul’s email and isp (Internet Service Provider) have been blocked. I appreciate your kindness my brother and not responding or lowering yourself to his level. Truly the Holy Spirit is working in you my good friend and brother in Christ and is another reason that I truly thank God for you Robert

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Jack Wellman December 3, 2014 at 1:06 pm

Thank you so much Roch…I appreciate that. I worship the Creator God and where He is silent, so must I be.

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